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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
What parliament are currently doing, aside from subverting the general way of rule in this country, is also trying to subvert the referendum itself.

Putting us firmly on a Remain/BINO path, arguably AGAINST the will of their constituents - the ones they are supposed to represent.

All the while avoiding the GE necessary to actually attain the mandate to act that way.

Its shady. Really shady, and I dont really see how people can be comfortable with it.

Well I can, because anyone wanting remain will be happy to get their way, but honestly - have a think about the machinations going on, are you really happy with it?

Or politics is a mess, and this sort of thing sets a dangerous precedent.
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I agree with your general point, like I said above, it's the job of parliament to act in the best interests of its constituents, rather than in their perceived interests (which is an important distinction imo) leaving the EU would be ruinous.

Any competent government would have treated the referendum as the advisory it was, put some proper research in to it, rather than spaffing out article 50 immediately, then come back to the electorate with an honest, "we've looked into this, and it's really brick, are you sure you want to do this?", rather than lying about sunlit uplands and treating the whole thing like a lark.
 
Parklaner81 said:
Varadkar resorting to threats now, by the sound of things

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brex...-hed-be-partly-to-blame/ar-AAH1APW?li=BBoPRmx
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41Gijd%2BdomL.jpg
 
galeforce said:
I agree with your general point, like I said above, it's the job of parliament to act in the best interests of its constituents, rather than in their perceived interests (which is an important distinction imo) leaving the EU would be ruinous.

Any competent government would have treated the referendum as the advisory it was, put some proper research in to it, rather than spaffing out article 50 immediately, then come back to the electorate with an honest, "we've looked into this, and it's really brick, are you sure you want to do this?", rather than lying about sunlit uplands and treating the whole thing like a lark.
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There are a million things that could (and should) have been done better, I certainly wouldnt argue against that.

However, I take issue with the best interests/perceived best interests line. Thats a very dodgy path to follow, it says the people dont know brick, we know better, so we'll just do what we think is best...

Not good, IMO.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I met Bercow once. He is a smug prick
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I actually did. The speaker has their own apartment in Parliment. I don't think they sleep there anymore, but it has a bed and reception rooms. It was used to launch a parlimentry group in this instance. He's very short, but extremely friendly, smart and generally awesome.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Isnt this something else? As I said before - its more like a coup - the opposition rallying to force through their own will against the sitting governments.

Circumventing the idea of having a government altogether.
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Wasn't ensuring our UK parliment has complete control a big part of Brexit?
 
galeforce said:
I agree with your general point, like I said above, it's the job of parliament to act in the best interests of its constituents, rather than in their perceived interests (which is an important distinction imo) leaving the EU would be ruinous.

Any competent government would have treated the referendum as the advisory it was, put some proper research in to it, rather than spaffing out article 50 immediately, then come back to the electorate with an honest, "we've looked into this, and it's really brick, are you sure you want to do this?", rather than lying about sunlit uplands and treating the whole thing like a lark.
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Not as immediately as some wanted, as I recall. But then you did say 'competent', so I guess you'd already excluded Jezza...
 
The Conservative party was alway too susceptible to the heady mix of power and more dangerously money.
It was inevitable and they will damage the country on the way down.
Very sad.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
There are a million things that could (and should) have been done better, I certainly wouldnt argue against that.

However, I take issue with the best interests/perceived best interests line. Thats a very dodgy path to follow, it says the people dont know brick, we know better, so we'll just do what we think is best...

Not good, IMO.
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But they should know better, that's the job, the base principle of parliamentary democracy, we the people outsource that brick.
 
galeforce said:
Every parliamentary MP has been elected.

I don’t consider it subversion of the referendum result, I’d consider standing by something so flawed to be a failure of government.
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Labour and the Lib Dems were not elected to lead the government - and yet they have snatched that very thing from the Tories.

It is a subversion of the referendum result, which was the leave the EU. They are doing their damn best to stop that from happening.

While I understand the idea they may think its for the greater good (though honestly would contest that is their intention) I also think its a very dangerous path to go down - to do the opposite of what the voting public want. Thats not democracy.

As I tried to say originally (and please dont take it as a personal dig, it is certainly not intended as such). Clearly you prefer remain, you think we shouldnt leave - and so would be quite happy with the outcome the rebels are working toward. I understand that, but cant help thinking you may not be really considering what it is they are doing and the precedent it sets. Were the same moves being made on a different matter, would you feel the same?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Labour and the Lib Dems were not elected to lead the government - and yet they have snatched that very thing from the Tories.

It is a subversion of the referendum result, which was the leave the EU. They are doing their damn best to stop that from happening.

While I understand the idea they may think its for the greater good (though honestly would contest that is their intention) I also think its a very dangerous path to go down - to do the opposite of what the voting public want. Thats not democracy.

As I tried to say originally (and please dont take it as a personal dig, it is certainly not intended as such). Clearly you prefer remain, you think we shouldnt leave - and so would be quite happy with the outcome the rebels are working toward. I understand that, but cant help thinking you may not be really considering what it is they are doing and the precedent it sets. Were the same moves being made on a different matter, would you feel the same?
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It depends on the matter, it's completely subjective, I don't think the referendum was valid nor is leaving the EU what the voting public now want, there is a moral imperative to avoid it imo.

Labour/LD MP's were not elected to lead the government but they were elected to be part of parliament and work for their constituents.
 
galeforce said:
It depends on the matter, it's completely subjective, I don't think the referendum was valid nor is leaving the EU what the voting public now want, there is a moral imperative to avoid it imo.

Labour/LD MP's were not elected to lead the government but they were elected to be part of parliament and work for their constituents.
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Fair enough. Needless to say Im far from comfortable with it.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Labour and the Lib Dems were not elected to lead the government - and yet they have snatched that very thing from the Tories.

It is a subversion of the referendum result, which was the leave the EU. They are doing their damn best to stop that from happening.

While I understand the idea they may think its for the greater good (though honestly would contest that is their intention) I also think its a very dangerous path to go down - to do the opposite of what the voting public want. Thats not democracy.

As I tried to say originally (and please dont take it as a personal dig, it is certainly not intended as such). Clearly you prefer remain, you think we shouldnt leave - and so would be quite happy with the outcome the rebels are working toward. I understand that, but cant help thinking you may not be really considering what it is they are doing and the precedent it sets. Were the same moves being made on a different matter, would you feel the same?
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I'm willing to accept that the Lib Dems genuinely hold that belief. Labour is another matter entirely...
 
galeforce said:
I agree with your general point, like I said above, it's the job of parliament to act in the best interests of its constituents, rather than in their perceived interests (which is an important distinction imo) leaving the EU would be ruinous.

Any competent government would have treated the referendum as the advisory it was, put some proper research in to it, rather than spaffing out article 50 immediately, then come back to the electorate with an honest, "we've looked into this, and it's really brick, are you sure you want to do this?", rather than lying about sunlit uplands and treating the whole thing like a lark.
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That sounds a lot like continuing to ask the question until parliament gets the answer it wants.

I'll accept that as our democratic method if it also means we can reject any election that gives power to a Labour government due to their spending plans being ruinous, renege on any previous agreements made with the EU because we don't like the outcomes now, etc.
 
scaramanga said:
That sounds a lot like continuing to ask the question until parliament gets the answer it wants.

I'll accept that as our democratic method if it also means we can reject any election that gives power to a Labour government due to their spending plans being ruinous, renege on any previous agreements made with the EU because we don't like the outcomes now, etc.
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And this right here is my real problem.

If we let it happen this time, where does it stop?

Its a really slippery slope.

And its one Corbyn and co are pushing, they have the option of a GE, the chance to win power and the mandate to follow their policies, but are instead just making a grab...

Ifs its ok now, because the outcome suits some, then what next?
 
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