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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

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the dza said:
Maybe some of us just want the pendulum to swing back a bit the other way from the politics of Thatcher/Reagan to a more mixed approach because it's fairer for the majority of people. I couldn't give a phuck about Israel, so long as their government doesn't have undue influence on our politics -- and I treat them the same as the Saudis or Russians or Yanks in that regard.

I don't care about "fresh." I will settle for "fair."
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Fair play to you. I should put my cards on the table. I think there is potential to have some form of state ownership. I like @Craig_J 's passion and desire to shake things up. But I've also seen how governments invariably run things very badly. Both in Cuba and in the UK (nd countless other places not first hand, for example Venezula where all that oil has been squandered by underinvetment by the government leading to people starving). I've also seen the benifits of enterprise - where you give individuals the chance to make money and control things themselves, and how that works a lot better becuase they care about what they are doing. Government enterprise doesn' have to be wasteful. But it undenably is. Both our civil service and public bodies, not to mention state owned enterprises, almost always lack something. This means you have to propose something different to communism or what has gone before.

One of my problems with Corbyn is he is not offering enough. Just spending on the welfare state and taking back the railways aint going to do anything. It's a sticky plaster on a bigger issue - how to structure government and the economy. And there is a lack of innovation in this area. Yet a lot could be done imo.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Fair play to you. I should put my cards on the table. I think there is potential to have some form of state ownership. I like @Craig_J 's passion and desire to shake things up. But I've also seen how governments invariably run things very badly. Both in Cuba and in the UK (nd countless other places not first hand, for example Venezula where all that oil has been squandered by underinvetment by the government leading to people starving). I've also seen the benifits of enterprise - where you give individuals the chance to make money and control things themselves, and how that works a lot better becuase they care about what they are doing. Government enterprise doesn' have to be wasteful. But it undenably is. Both our civil service and public bodies, not to mention state owned enterprises, almost always lack something. This means you have to propose something different to communism or what has gone before.

One of my problems with Corbyn is he is not offer enough. Just spending on the welfare state and taking back the railways aint going to do anything. It's a sticky plaster on a bigger issue - how to structure government and the economy. And there is a lack of innovation in this area. Yet a lot could be done imo.
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I'd agree, Corbyn is a sticking plaster of sorts. And he was put where he is, he never really sought it. I think of him more as starting a conversation that say, in the post 2008 world, maybe we can't just carry on as we are and have to do something a bit different. A placeholder for something (or someone) else, but in the meantime much more preferable (imo at least) than these vapid Tories who really are all out of ideas bar clinging on to power by any means necessary.
 
Craig_J said:
Then of course that persecution of Armenians is also something to stop for the world- but as far as I know no one in our country is supporting or allowing the persecution to happen to it's a completely different beast to the Western backed persecution of Palestinians. It would be quite strange for the Labour party to campaign for changes in our society to stop supporting Armenian genocide, when there is no faction in our society

The fact that people have left doesn't mean anything. People are offended because they are told to be. They are told it's anti-Semitic to criticise Israel, and people go with it. You've got the mainstream media making a frenzy and not considering any arguments about why Labour do not support that particular clause within the definition. You don't have anyone debating the merits of it, they are told that they should be offended and duly deliver.

They are not told that Arabs are not allowed to fully participate in society because of their race and religion. They are not told about the displacement that took place before. They are not told that being told you cannot criticise a state is fascism. All because the very definition being criticised IS fascist and allows for no criticism. Instead they are told Labour is refusing to accept the full definition and that's that.

As for Jewish Labour MPs leaving isn't that only Luciana Berger? Why can that not be because she's a Blairite? The last leader of the Labour party was a jew for crying out loud - and the guy who finished second to him was well!!! If it's a front for antisemitism it's certainly not a very functional one.:D

If you don't think that there is a media funded by billionaires that is backing a neo-liberal agenda than that would surely discount any discourse analysis regarding the subject - and facts regarding media monopolies overall.

I don't see why anyone should become anti-semitic because of that. We know the media try to tell you what to think. That's why you can read a story in the Guardian reported one way and then in the Daily Mail it's completely the opposite. This happens daily. It would only be anti-semitic to say that Murdoch is part of the problem if someone said it's because he is Jewish. And as far as I know, no one has ever said that - personally I never knew that he was Jewish. I've always put it down to the fact he's descended from Aussie convicts ;) [Joking of course]
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Thankfully Murdoch isn't jewish. If he were he would be part of the international jewish neo-liberal elite shaping our world! :)

Your party chairman Tom Watson has given examples of anti-semitism The Labour MPs (and it is plural) cited anti-semitism when they left. It might not be the worst forms of racism, but there is something there and it needs rooting out and condemning. If Corbyn had nipped it in the bud early we wouldn't be here. Problem is he has time for Hamas and sympathies with the revolutionary gonad*s narratives about zionism. Why entertain it? He's not some revolutionary on the outside anymore. He could actually make a difference to the UK if he could progress and not get stuck in things from his past.
 
scaramanga said:
I disagree. I don't think there is any other religion that is also a race. Certainly none of the major ones.

I can't think of any country where the nationality is used interchangeably with a religion as is with Israeli and Jewish.
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Lolz, have you never heard of Sikhs or Hindus?
All comes down to how one defines 'race' or 'religion' - and i think you know this.
So, whilst slightly amusing (only slightly), i think you should stop trolling and just come clean.

Shalom my friend
 
glorygloryeze said:
Lolz, have you never heard of Sikhs or Hindus?
All comes down to how one defines 'race' or 'religion' - and i think you know this.
So, whilst slightly amusing (only slightly), i think you should stop trolling and just come clean.

Shalom my friend
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In what situation would you refer to an atheist as a Sikh or Hindu? I can't think of a single one.

I would refer to someone from India as someone from India - I wouldn't bring religion into it unless they defined themselves by their religion. People from Israel or Israeli heritage are often referred to as Jews though, without any religious attribution at all.
 
scaramanga said:
In what situation would you refer to an atheist as a Sikh or Hindu? I can't think of a single one.

I would refer to someone from India as someone from India - I wouldn't bring religion into it unless they defined themselves by their religion. People from Israel or Israeli heritage are often referred to as Jews though, without any religious attribution at all.
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You get people who are of Jewish/Sikh/Hindu culture refer to themselves as atheist all the time, but also say that they are of Jewish/Sikh/Hindu culture/heritage.

People living in the land called Israel have always been called Israelites regardless of whether they followed Judaism or the Torah. For example, there are large numbers Arab Israelis living in Israel right now that are not of the Jewish faith or even the Muslim faith and they have resided in the land called Israel for centuries.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-50-extension-minister-suggests-politics-live

Corbyn said Labour’s action is consistent with motion the party backed at conference in September last year. This seems to be correct. Here’s the relevant section of the composite motion:

Should parliament vote down a Tory Brexit deal or the talks end in no-deal, Conference believes this would constitute a loss of confidence in the government. In these circumstances, the best outcome for the country is an immediate general election that can sweep the Tories from power.

If we cannot get a general election, Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote. If the government is confident in negotiating a deal that working people, our economy and communities will benefit from they should not be afraid to put that deal to the public.

Labour has said this evening that the second referendum portion of its move is aimed at preventing Theresa May from forcing through either her deal as it stands or no deal – not necessarily at stopping Brexit in any form.

If the prime minister were to adopt a Brexit stance Labour felt it could back, there would be no push for a second referendum.

The shadow Brexit secretary put like this:

Keir Starmer (@Keir_Starmer)
This week Labour will put its alternative plan for a vote in the House of Commons.

If Parliament rejects our plan, then Labour will deliver on the promise we made at our annual conference and support a public vote. https://t.co/EjCifYCDJP

February 25, 2019
 
It's just more play though because he knows many of his 61% of MPs from leave constituencies will defy the whip. If anything it just encourages the ERG to pass Mays deal
 
glorygloryeze said:
You get people who are of Jewish/Sikh/Hindu culture refer to themselves as atheist all the time, but also say that they are of Jewish/Sikh/Hindu culture/heritage.

People living in the land called Israel have always been called Israelites regardless of whether they followed Judaism or the Torah. For example, there are large numbers Arab Israelis living in Israel right now that are not of the Jewish faith or even the Muslim faith and they have resided in the land called Israel for centuries.
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I've not met many Hindus, but I have worked with quite a few Sikh, Muslims and people from the areas where those religions are prevalent. Without a single exception those referring to themselves by their religion were religious and those who weren't would refer to themselves by their region or, rarely, their nationality.
 
scaramanga said:
I've not met many Hindus, but I have worked with quite a few Sikh, Muslims and people from the areas where those religions are prevalent. Without a single exception those referring to themselves by their religion were religious and those who weren't would refer to themselves by their region or, rarely, their nationality.
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Ahh, so it's about the circles you move in; so every Jewish person you've met also calls themself an Israeli and every Israeli you've met also calls themself Jewish?

:D

As I said, Shalom my friend
 
glorygloryeze said:
Ahh, so it's about the circles you move in; so every Jewish person you've met also calls themself an Israeli and every Israeli you've met also calls themself Jewish?

:D

As I said, Shalom my friend
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Why does everyone keep writing Shalom my friend? Anyway if there is a religious sect Scara believes in it is Shiite Islam :cool:
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Corbyn just lost one vote at the next election, not that I imagine he cares about me.

Guess I will be spoiling the ballot paper now.
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What's the best way to treat people that voted because they felt they had no voice?

Confirm their fears and confirm the voice they had isn't going to be listened too.

I mentioned before their will be riots, I firmly believe that still. May confirmed she has same fears.
 
Totally weird day;

-I'm a remainer (I wanted change in the party and voting system before having the debate)
-Jezza now backs a second referendum (which I think is logical)
-I applied for a job to work on the preparations for no deal
-Theresa May confirms she won't push back A50 deadline

So confused what outcome I want now!:D
 
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