Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[AuroRaman]

You need to distinguish between disagreeing with you and not understanding something.

If you'd like to point out where you disagree I'll happily help you understand why you're wrong

I enjoy your posts too much to get in a tit-for-tat [emoji16]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[scaramanga]

I enjoy your posts too much to get in a tit-for-tat [emoji16]

Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

Careful, anyone reading that might get the impression I'm argumentative!

 

[the dza]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1099612904729526272

#values

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think it's important to separate my feelings towards the Jewish religion and the Jewish people. I think the religion is as ridiculous as any other, and the attempts made by modern followers of it to "con" their supposedly omnipresent GHod in order to get around all his silly rules are hilarious.

Jewish people, on the other hand, deserve protection from the kind of people the Labour party are allowing to be a part of their movement.

Ok then...can I ask you how do you yourself distinguish between those who follow the Jewish faith and Jewish people?

 

[scaramanga]

Ok then...can I ask you how do you yourself distinguish between those who follow the Jewish faith and Jewish people?

Sure. People who call themselves Jewish because of their heritage, genetics, etc are Jewish people. People who call themselves Jewish because they have an imaginary friend are those of Jewish faith.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Sure. People who call themselves Jewish because of their heritage, genetics, etc are Jewish people. People who call themselves Jewish because they have an imaginary friend are those of Jewish faith.

People who call themselves Jewish because of genetics, hereditary are they not doing that because at some point their ancestors believed in a "Jewish imaginary friend"?

 

[Craig_J]

Their imaginary friend is just as ridiculous but slightly less deplorable (they're all a brickshow so comparisons only go so far).

Seeing as we (the West) had idly sat by and seen Jews getting mistreated and displaced for a while, I think it's only right that they got to choose where they lived. The place they chose was virtually uninhabited wasteland and they did have some kind of historic claim having been where their ancestors had originally lived.

What a ludicrous assertion. Those who are now Israeli had the right to choose where they lived, anywhere in the world, because of what they've been through - regardless of who lived there

700,000 people, or half the Palestinian population at the time, were displaced as a result of the establishment of the state of Israel.

If I own a house and then sell it on, move away for 50 years, do I have the right to come back and tell you to clear out of your fudging home because I'm back with 'some kind of a historic claim'? Do we as the people of Britain have the right to head to Saxony tomorrow and tell the Gerry bastards living there that they should tinkle off to Bavaria because we are back with 'some kind of a historic claim''? If this was the case what kind of a world do you think we'd live in now?!?! You're advocating complete anarchy here - the world would be in a thousands times more disarray than it is today

To this day Muslims are being forced out their homes, watching them be demolished, and watching Israel build news ones and moving Israeli's in. A bit like how in 1930s Germany Jewish settlements were torn down or otherwise expropriated for Germans... but it would be very bad of me to point that out.

Even if we ignore you're incredibly naive and incorrect assertion that people have an entitlement to choose anywhere in the world to live if they are mistreated - how and why have Israel been allowed to expand so much (and still expanding day by day) till we've got to this point? It's a travesty.

Two UN independent human rights investigators have commented on this.

One is John Duggard, an expert on Apartheid in South Africa - who noted the 'Judaization' of Jerusalem is a prime example of many Israeli policies 'of colonialism, apartheid or occupation'.


https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/593075

Another is Richard Falk, who said the eviction of Palestinians can "only be described in its cumulative impact as a form of ethnic cleansing."

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opini...israel-apartheid-report-puts-free-speech-risk

Interestingly enough in that one he talks about the risks that censorship on condemning Israel entails, and that former Israeli leaders themselves have said that Israel is establishing itself as an apartheid state.

Uninhabited, not uninhabitable.

Excuse the use of Wikipedia but I can't be bothered to search any further. According to their page on Israel, during the Arab Revolt (shortly before WWII), "British Mandate authorities alongside the Zionist militias of Haganah and Irgun killed 5,032 Arabs and wounded 14,760, resulting in over ten percent of the adult male Palestinian Arab population killed, wounded, imprisoned or exiled." That would make the adult male population in the area somewhere south of 200,000. Adult males are usually around 37% of the population. So a total (non-jewish) population of around 540,000 people.

Israel is 20,770 km² giving us a population ratio of around 26 people per square km, or that of Laos or Vanuatu.

You can't be bothered to do any research so will never be able to challenge your own mythical narratives and consequently cannot pretend to be right about something that you know fudge all about.

If you really wanted to - you could follow up on this, read through evidence and change your own opinion. But you won't - you'll maintain your own opinion and refuse to challenge it. And that's what's most fudged up about the world we live in today.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Craig_J are there other things in the world that are also "a travesty"? Are you as interested in them too? What is your connection to Palastine/Isreal?

Are there two sides to every story? If so are you able to do what you say others can't: consider complexities and the other side of the coin, or are you also just as encamped in your own particular bias and opinion?

 

[scaramanga]

People who call themselves Jewish because of genetics, hereditary are they not doing that because at some point their ancestors believed in a "Jewish imaginary friend"?

It's a moot point, as it should be off limits either way - it's not their choice who they're born to.

But I think the word "Jewish" means a lot more than a religious adherent. It can mean a race, genetics, or simply membership of a group of people who have been persecuted and displaced for years and should now be free of that.

 

[scaramanga]

What a ludicrous assertion. Those who are now Israeli had the right to choose where they lived, anywhere in the world, because of what they've been through - regardless of who lived there

700,000 people, or half the Palestinian population at the time, were displaced as a result of the establishment of the state of Israel.

If I own a house and then sell it on, move away for 50 years, do I have the right to come back and tell you to clear out of your fudging home because I'm back with 'some kind of a historic claim'? Do we as the people of Britain have the right to head to Saxony tomorrow and tell the Gerry bastards living there that they should tinkle off to Bavaria because we are back with 'some kind of a historic claim''? If this was the case what kind of a world do you think we'd live in now?!?! You're advocating complete anarchy here - the world would be in a thousands times more disarray than it is today

To this day Muslims are being forced out their homes, watching them be demolished, and watching Israel build news ones and moving Israeli's in. A bit like how in 1930s Germany Jewish settlements were torn down or otherwise expropriated for Germans... but it would be very bad of me to point that out.

Even if we ignore you're incredibly naive and incorrect assertion that people have an entitlement to choose anywhere in the world to live if they are mistreated - how and why have Israel been allowed to expand so much (and still expanding day by day) till we've got to this point? It's a travesty.

Two UN independent human rights investigators have commented on this.

One is John Duggard, an expert on Apartheid in South Africa - who noted the 'Judaization' of Jerusalem is a prime example of many Israeli policies 'of colonialism, apartheid or occupation'.


https://digitallibrary.un.org/record/593075

Another is Richard Falk, who said the eviction of Palestinians can "only be described in its cumulative impact as a form of ethnic cleansing."

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opini...israel-apartheid-report-puts-free-speech-risk

Interestingly enough in that one he talks about the risks that censorship on condemning Israel entails, and that former Israeli leaders themselves have said that Israel is establishing itself as an apartheid state.



You can't be bothered to do any research so will never be able to challenge your own mythical narratives and consequently cannot pretend to be right about something that you know fudge all about.

If you really wanted to - you could follow up on this, read through evidence and change your own opinion. But you won't - you'll maintain your own opinion and refuse to challenge it. And that's what's most fudged up about the world we live in today.

. If your last post got a tl:dr what the hell makes you think I'm going to read all of that!?

You seem really upset about it - way more than I can possibly try to challenge. I couldn't care less about the plight of terrorists. If Palestinians want to be treated like a proper country then they need to avoid voting in terrorist organisations and avoid targeting civilians.

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's a moot point, as it should be off limits either way - it's not their choice who they're born to.

But I think the word "Jewish" means a lot more than a religious adherent. It can mean a race, genetics, or simply membership of a group of people who have been persecuted and displaced for years and should now be free of that.

And therein you solidify my point
And that's fair enough, you should just be honest and upfront about your partisan two-tiered approach to how you denigrate the religions; after all I'm sure there are many who talk of a "Christian race" or a "group of religious adherents who have been persecuted for years"

Only natural after all - Shalom my friend

 

[Craig_J]

@Craig_J are there other things in the world that are also "a travesty"? Are you as interested in them too? What is your connection to Palastine/Isreal?

Are there two sides to every story? If so are you able to do what you say others can't: consider complexities and the other side of the coin, or are you also just as encamped in your own particular bias and opinion?

I don't have any personal connection to Israel and Palestine. The closest I come to having either a connection with either group is supporting Tottenham who call ourselves 'Yids'.

The other side of the story is like Scara said, there was genocide committed against the Jews in Europe, and it is somewhat understandable to then decide to give them their own land somewhere as a sense of security, although I do think letting them reintegrate themselves back into Europe, or otherwise moving over to Britain or the US, would probably have been just as effective. A large portion of them had already escaped Nazi Germany and were living in Britain or elsewhere anyway.

But what is unacceptable is to violently displace another indigenous group in the same manner the persecuted you're attempting to accommodate were themselves displaced, and then violating the original partition plan.

In that scenario there was sympathy for the Jews predicament and a complete neglect for the rights and homes off Palestinians. Today that carries on and manifests itself in allowing the state of Israel to carry out displacement with impunity and tarnishing any criticsm of that as Anti-Semitic. Hardly a fitting solution to a problem so famously "built by hate, but paved with indifference".

 

[Craig_J]

. If your last post got a tl:dr what the hell makes you think I'm going to read all of that!?

You seem really upset about it - way more than I can possibly try to challenge. I couldn't care less about the plight of terrorists. If Palestinians want to be treated like a proper country then they need to avoid voting in terrorist organisations and avoid targeting civilians.

You sound like the kind of populist that owe's it's existence in Western society to being unable/ unmoved to read anything intelligent and going for the tabloid bite-size sensationalist rhetoric .

 

[scaramanga]

And therein you solidify my point
And that's fair enough, you should just be honest and upfront about your partisan two-tiered approach to how you denigrate the religions; after all I'm sure there are many who talk of a "Christian race" or a "group of religious adherents who have been persecuted for years"

Only natural after all - Shalom my friend

I disagree. I don't think there is any other religion that is also a race. Certainly none of the major ones.

I can't think of any country where the nationality is used interchangeably with a religion as is with Israeli and Jewish.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I don't have any personal connection to Israel and Palestine. The closest I come to having either a connection with either group is supporting Tottenham who call ourselves 'Yids'.

The other side of the story is like Scara said, there was genocide committed against the Jews in Europe, and it is somewhat understandable to then decide to give them their own land somewhere as a sense of security, although I do think letting them reintegrate themselves back into Europe, or otherwise moving over to Britain or the US, would probably have been just as effective. A large portion of them had already escaped Nazi Germany and were living in Britain or elsewhere anyway.

But what is unacceptable is to violently displace another indigenous group in the same manner the persecuted you're attempting to accommodate were themselves displaced, and then violating the original partition plan.

In that scenario there was sympathy for the Jews predicament and a complete neglect for the rights and homes off Palestinians. Today that carries on and manifests itself in allowing the state of Israel to carry out displacement with impunity and tarnishing any criticsm of that as Anti-Semitic. Hardly a fitting solution to a problem so famously "built by hate, but paved with indifference".

Why does this issue excercise you and parts of the Labour party so vehermenty? 1.5 million Armenians were 'purged' by the Ottomans, are you passionate about their plight too? You could say the Ottomans (Turkey) have a legitimate claim to Isreal as the previous owners before we came along. Or would you say Britian should own Isreal? Or go back further to the Philistines (their decenents became Palistinians) or the Eber (which means crossed the river and became Hebrews). It is highly complex and to follow a polarised (anti-zionist) version gives the impression of dogmatic intransigence; and if that is what jewish Labour MPs feel up against in pockets of Momentum, can you be suprised that they split from the party? Unlike you these MP have a connection to Isreal, whether they like it not, as their race has a homeland there.

I agree with a lot of your outlook, but the problem with Momentum and the Labour party is it comes accross as unballanced, unrealistic, and wanting a revolution without having the intelligence or creativity to offer anything particularly fresh. Corbyn's worldview seems a little stuck in the 70s. Back the revolution in Venezuela (it died with Chavez), back Hamas as he met with them 30 odd years ago when he was a revolutionary (?). It's almost like he hasn't grown up, still stuck in his youthful ideals.

It's easy to criticise, harder to create. So I do like the premise he offers - more drastic change. But fill it with substance. Understand that there are some advantages to a privitised railway network, things that did work, learn about them too, then come up with something more clever than communism which failed. I've lived in a communist country. It had a lot of good things going on, but the economy is not one of them. But most of all, don't go round criticising people as racist, while hounding one race out of the party. That is not what the Labour party should be about.

 

[scaramanga]

You sound like the kind of populist that owe's it's existence in Western society to being unable/ unmoved to read anything intelligent and going for the tabloid bite-size sensationalist rhetoric .

Don't get me wrong, I've read plenty on the subject, I just quickly run out of patience when reading people who get so upset about it all.

Don't confuse my indifference with ignorance. The anti-Semitism in the area started a long time before Israel - I have no sympathy for the plight of a few anti-Semites.

 

[Craig_J]

Why does this issue excercise you and parts of the Labour party so vehermenty? 1.5 million Armenians were 'purged' by the Ottomans, are you passionate about them too? You could say the Ottomans (Turkey) have a legitimate claim to Isreal as the previous owners before we came along. Or would you say Britian should own Isreal? Or go back further to the Philistines (their decenents became Palistinians) or the Eber (which means crossed the river and became Hebrews). It is highly complex and to follow a polarised (anti-zionist) version gives the impression of dogma; and if that is what jewish Labour MPs feel up against in pockets of Momentum, can you be suprised that they split from the party? Unlike you these MP have a connection to Isreal, whether they like it not, as their race has a homeland there.

I agree with a lot of your outlook, but the problem with Momentum and the Labour party is it comes accross as unballanced, unrealistic, and wanting a revolution without having the intelligence or creativity to offer anything particularly fresh. Corbyn's worldview seems a little stuck in the 70s. Back the revolution in Venezuela (it died with Chavez), back Hamas as he met with them 30 odd years ago when he was a revolutionary (?). It's almost like he hasn't grown up, still stuck in his youthful ideals.

It's easy to criticise, harder to create. So I do like the premise he offers. But fill it with substance. Understand that there are some advantages to a privitised railway network, things that did work, learn about them too, then come up with something more clever than communism which failed. I've lived in a communist country. It had a lot of good things going on, but the economy is not one of them. But most of all, don't go round criticising people as racist, while hounding one race out of the party. That is not what the Labour party should be about.

From an historical point of view I would be, however, I wouldn't be as passionate about it because there's nothing we can do about that as it's over and done with in the same way that the holocaust is, whilst the plight of Palestine is going on today.

As for the second, there's no hounding out of ethnic Jews. I've known socialist ethnic (agnostics or atheists but from a religiously Jewish family) Jews who agree with Labour's policy over definition of anti-Antisemitism and who accept what's happening. An opinion on a state of Israel does not equate to an opinion over Jewish people as a whole.

 

[SpurMeUp]

From an historical point of view I would be, however, I wouldn't be as passionate about it because there's nothing we can do about that as it's over and done with in the same way that the holocaust is, whilst the plight of Palestine is going on today.

As for the second, there's no hounding out of ethnic Jews. I've known socialist ethnic (agnostics or atheists but from a religiously Jewish family) Jews who agree with Labour's policy over definition of anti-Antisemitism and who accept what's happening. An opinion on a state of Israel does not equate to an opinion over Jewish people as a whole.

On both counts you're wrong.

Amenians are still persecuted. It's just not widely reported. This race have been largly forgotton. Where are Momentum fighting for these often oppressed people? You might argue they have less exposure and need support far more. https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/so...persecution-of-armenians-20150401-1mchqm.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...enerlogy-family-trees-ethnicity-a8234346.html

The evidence contradicts what you are saying "there's no hounding out of ethnic jews". 1. jewish MPs have left the party. People who have invested in Labour all their lives. They didn't leave all that behind lightly. 2. on here card holding Labour people have said they are done with Labour. Today 3. your party chairman said he'd send 14 examples of anti-semitism to Corbyn. Look at the evidence.

Instead of trying to fight some mythical 'neo-liberal economic hegemony' (of which there are notable jews like Murdoch which idionts can use to fuel their racism), why not focus on putting forward something truely exciting for the UK? Reaching economics etc. Instead you get worked up about Isreal and conspiricy theories.

I think the epoch of popularism is simple: hungry for something fresh, don't know what it is !

 

[the dza]

On both counts you're wrong.

Amenians are still persecuted. It's just not widely reported. This race have been largly forgotton. Where are Momentum fighting for these often oppressed people? You might argue they have less exposure and need support far more. https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/so...persecution-of-armenians-20150401-1mchqm.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...enerlogy-family-trees-ethnicity-a8234346.html

The evidence contradicts what you are saying "there's no hounding out of ethnic jews". 1. jewish MPs have left the party. People who have invested in Labour all their lives. They didn't leave all that behind lightly. 2. on here card holding Labour people have said they are done with Labour. Today 3. your party chairman said he'd send 14 examples of anti-semitism to Corbyn. Look at the evidence.

Instead of trying to fight some mythical 'neo-liberal economic hegemony' (of which there are notable jews like Murdoch which idionts can use to fuel their racism), why not focus on putting forward something truely exciting for the UK? Reaching economics etc. Instead you get worked up about Isreal and conspiricy theories.

I think the epoch of popularism is simple: hungry for something fresh, don't know what it is !

Maybe some of us just want the pendulum to swing back a bit the other way from the politics of Thatcher/Reagan to a more mixed approach because it's fairer for the majority of people. I couldn't give a phuck about Israel, so long as their government doesn't have undue influence on our politics -- and I treat them the same as the Saudis or Russians or Yanks in that regard.

I don't care about "fresh." I will settle for "fair."

 

[Craig_J]

On both counts you're wrong.

Amenians are still persecuted. It's just not widely reported. This race have been largly forgotton. Where are Momentum fighting for these often oppressed people? You might argue they have less exposure and need support far more. https://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/so...persecution-of-armenians-20150401-1mchqm.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...enerlogy-family-trees-ethnicity-a8234346.html

The evidence contradicts what you are saying "there's no hounding out of ethnic jews". 1. jewish MPs have left the party. People who have invested in Labour all their lives. They didn't leave all that behind lightly. 2. on here card holding Labour people have said they are done with Labour. Today 3. your party chairman said he'd send 14 examples of anti-semitism to Corbyn. Look at the evidence.

Instead of trying to fight some mythical 'neo-liberal economic hegemony' (of which there are notable jews like Murdoch which idionts can use to fuel their racism), why not focus on putting forward something truely exciting for the UK? Reaching economics etc. Instead you get worked up about Isreal and conspiricy theories.

I think the epoch of popularism is simple: hungry for something fresh, don't know what it is !

Then of course that persecution of Armenians is also something to stop for the world- but as far as I know no one in our country is supporting or allowing the persecution to happen to it's a completely different beast to the Western backed persecution of Palestinians. It would be quite strange for the Labour party to campaign for changes in our society to stop supporting Armenian genocide, when there is no faction in our society

The fact that people have left doesn't mean anything. People are offended because they are told to be. They are told it's anti-Semitic to criticise Israel, and people go with it. You've got the mainstream media making a frenzy and not considering any arguments about why Labour do not support that particular clause within the definition. You don't have anyone debating the merits of it, they are told that they should be offended and duly deliver.

They are not told that Arabs are not allowed to fully participate in society because of their race and religion. They are not told about the displacement that took place before. They are not told that being told you cannot criticise a state is fascism. All because the very definition being criticised IS fascist and allows for no criticism. Instead they are told Labour is refusing to accept the full definition and that's that.

As for Jewish Labour MPs leaving isn't that only Luciana Berger? Why can that not be because she's a Blairite? The last leader of the Labour party was a jew for crying out loud - and the guy who finished second to him was well!!! If it's a front for antisemitism it's certainly not a very functional one.

If you don't think that there is a media funded by billionaires that is backing a neo-liberal agenda than that would surely discount any discourse analysis regarding the subject - and facts regarding media monopolies overall.

I don't see why anyone should become anti-semitic because of that. We know the media try to tell you what to think. That's why you can read a story in the Guardian reported one way and then in the Daily Mail it's completely the opposite. This happens daily. It would only be anti-semitic to say that Murdoch is part of the problem if someone said it's because he is Jewish. And as far as I know, no one has ever said that - personally I never knew that he was Jewish. I've always put it down to the fact he's descended from Aussie convicts [Joking of course]