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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Grays_1890 said:
Well one of the major arguments for Brexit was a fair wage for local workers like Brickies and other trades to have a better chance of a fairer wage than employing cheaper from abroad, so its really different cheeks to the same arse in many respects.

And a couple of plonkers on here (although they might have been the ones that got banned) wanted to see an end to all of it and self sooth from the loss of the 7m workforce
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Undercutting domestic workers isn't the same as bringing in skills that are needed.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
They're asking for a 29% pay increase, which would represent a baseline additional cost to public finances of over £500 million annually including additional pension contributions but that doesnt include the additional cost of overtime payments and pension liabilities (to cover the gap between what is guaranteed to be paid to them on retirement and the value of their pension funds built up from contributions).

Nobody is taking them for granted but given the state of current public finances and the current rate of inflation, I dont think what they're asking for is reasonable at all.
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Are they? I thought that was the total figure they have received as back paid cost of living increases over the past couple of years, not what they want now
 
Lilbaz said:
Undercutting domestic workers isn't the same as bringing in skills that are needed.
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Of course it is, if the salary being offered is paltry that means people don't want to do the job or they think their skills are being undervalued, then topping up with skilled staff from overseas who are cheaper and willing to do the job is the same.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Of course it is, if the salary being offered is paltry that means people don't want to do the job or they think their skills are being undervalued, then topping up with skilled staff from overseas who are cheaper and willing to do the job is the same.
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It isn't the same. If i want a wall built and british builders that have to pay tax, minimum wage, ni, sick pay, holiday etc... costs me x.
But a company from germany will do it with eastern european "agency workers" not even paid in this country can do it for less because they don't have to worry about that. That is undercutting not bringing in skills needed. We have the skill and can do the job. We just can't match the price.
 
Lilbaz said:
It isn't the same. If i want a wall built and british builders that have to pay tax, minimum wage, ni, sick pay, holiday etc... costs me x.
But a company from germany will do it with eastern european "agency workers" not even paid in this country can do it for less because they don't have to worry about that. That is undercutting not bringing in skills needed. We have the skill and can do the job. We just can't match the price.
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We can match the price, we decide not to because the levels of wastage in NHS spending means they won't and then we fill it with cheaper options. So the outcome is the same
 
Grays_1890 said:
We can match the price, we decide not to because the levels of wastage in NHS spending means they won't and then we fill it with cheaper options. So the outcome is the same
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As i said most people don't have a problem with highly paid professionals coming into the country. They are a positive contribution and have skills we need.

Lower skilled that can be filled with the domestic population yes. Which includes carers and nurses.

Massive problem with the criminals. The albanian gangs are now taking over. Causing terror on council states across the country. Currently fighting the somali gangs in london.

This binary view that immigraton is either good or bad is stupid.
 
Lilbaz said:
As i said most people don't have a problem with highly paid professionals coming into the country. They are a positive contribution and have skills we need.

Lower skilled that can be filled with the domestic population yes. Which includes carers and nurses.

Massive problem with the criminals. The albanian gangs are now taking over. Causing terror on council states across the country. Currently fighting the somali gangs in london.

This binary view that immigraton is either good or bad is stupid.
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Because as I said last year when those that wanted to talk about it in binary terms, people often don't separate the two, which happens alot on here as well as anywhere. There is a huge difference between immigration and illegal immigration whilst there is also a need to be humanitarian with Asylum IMO, and people need to be better when discussing it IMO because too many don't differentiate and that has a knock on to people here working their arses off for the good of the country.

Maybe if Tommy Robinson and the football first groups were not doing so much cocaine bought off Albanians then their income would be cut and funding for female human trafficking, forced sex working and violence would shrink...........of the irony of that too
 
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Lilbaz said:
25% would come back in income tax/ni. Everything they spend would face vat 17%. Boost other jobs, businesses (unless it was going out of the country). Which in turn would create tax revenue.

The simplistic view it would cost blah, blah is nonsense.
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NI is circular as the NHS has to make NI contributions, but it goes back to the treasury. The baseline costs are simplistic but the pension liabilities are the main sink as long as NHS pension liabilities remain wedded to average salary through their careers.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Thats what they want over time to reverse the fact their wages have trended drastically under inflation for years no? Not what they want in one hit
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They've said 29.2% in one hit is what is required to restore pay based on their analysis (which is flawed as they only use one metric of inflation which isnt the usual metric for calculating real-terms pay changes over time either). They've produced a chart setting out how long it would take to get to where they want with various pay rises. They've rejected the current offer of 5.4% as it would take 12 years to get to their goal. Anything under 5 years is over 10% though so I imagine the road for negotiation is pretty narrow.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Irrelevant of whether he is or not, he isn't wrong. BMA are only using one metric of inflation (the only one that actually supports their argument) and irrelevant of that, resident doctors are already one of the most well remunerated professions in the country, with absolutely ridiculous pensions and have already been given a pay rise beyond the dreams of pretty much any other profession out there.

Pension liability is never mentioned when it comes to public sector pay increases. Doctors pensions guarantees a payout underwritten by the government based on an average calculation of salary over years of service. Therefore a 29% increase in base pay equals a far far greater increase in public spending uplifts when the OBR and pretty much every other analytical body have stated are currently on an unsustainable footing following the govt u-turn on social security reform.

You have doctors making these huge demands following the chancellor having a public meltdown because the finances are f*cked. And we need politicians with the balls to be able to tackle these issues and the current lot and most of the last lot didn't have that. Yes, Reform are a wrecking ball but right now thats what this country desperately needs
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Liz Truss was supposedly a wrecking ball. That worked out well.

scaramanga said:
That's precisely what should happen when unions don't fudge things up with their thumbs on the scales.

The correct pay for the job is the equilibrium point where there are just enough doctors.
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Whereas we currently aren’t recruiting enough.

Reform voters will be very tinkled off when they rock up to their appointments to find they’re being looked after by doctors from Africa and India. I live next door to one of them who is in the middle of cancer treatment, and he is. He doesn’t seem to be able to make the connections though.
 
Mikey10 said:
Liz Truss was supposedly a wrecking ball. That worked out well.



Whereas we currently aren’t recruiting enough.

Reform voters will be very tinkled off when they rock up to their appointments to find they’re being looked after by doctors from Africa and India. I live next door to one of them who is in the middle of cancer treatment, and he is. He doesn’t seem to be able to make the connections though.
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You are the one incapable of making the connections.
See what life is like on the council estates. With the scum that is here. People are living in terror.
But no, say maybe we shouldn't let in all these criminals, is racist and means you don't want a doctor.
Seriously then you get surprised when a brexit happens or reform is leading in the polls?

Bury your head in the sand. But i'm telling you. People are that tinkled off and desperate we could see another hitler.
 
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