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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

scaramanga said:
He is, but is he wrong here?
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I would say yes given they have been massively under paid for a long time. Whats the entry rate now year 1 after years of studying? £36,000?

Thats absolutely ridiculous given the job and the responsibility.

If people are going to go after anything in the NHS it should be the management and third party contracts.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I would say yes given they have been massively under paid for a long time. Whats the entry rate now year 1 after years of studying? £36,000?

Thats absolutely ridiculous given the job and the responsibility.

If people are going to go after anything in the NHS it should be the management and third party contracts.
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They all knew the rates of pay when starting the training and when starting the job.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Bloke an utter cnut

https://twitter.com/x/status/1943186243119972426
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Irrelevant of whether he is or not, he isn't wrong. BMA are only using one metric of inflation (the only one that actually supports their argument) and irrelevant of that, resident doctors are already one of the most well remunerated professions in the country, with absolutely ridiculous pensions and have already been given a pay rise beyond the dreams of pretty much any other profession out there.

Pension liability is never mentioned when it comes to public sector pay increases. Doctors pensions guarantees a payout underwritten by the government based on an average calculation of salary over years of service. Therefore a 29% increase in base pay equals a far far greater increase in public spending uplifts when the OBR and pretty much every other analytical body have stated are currently on an unsustainable footing following the govt u-turn on social security reform.

You have doctors making these huge demands following the chancellor having a public meltdown because the finances are f*cked. And we need politicians with the balls to be able to tackle these issues and the current lot and most of the last lot didn't have that. Yes, Reform are a wrecking ball but right now thats what this country desperately needs
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Irrelevant of whether he is or not, he isn't wrong. BMA are only using one metric of inflation (the only one that actually supports their argument) and irrelevant of that, resident doctors are already one of the most well remunerated professions in the country, with absolutely ridiculous pensions and have already been given a pay rise beyond the dreams of pretty much any other profession out there.

Pension liability is never mentioned when it comes to public sector pay increases. Doctors pensions guarantees a payout underwritten by the government based on an average calculation of salary over years of service. Therefore a 29% increase in base pay equals a far far greater increase in public spending uplifts when the OBR and pretty much every other analytical body have stated are currently on an unsustainable footing following the govt u-turn on social security reform.

You have doctors making these huge demands following the chancellor having a public meltdown because the finances are f*cked. And we need politicians with the balls to be able to tackle these issues and the current lot and most of the last lot didn't have that. Yes, Reform are a wrecking ball but right now thats what this country desperately needs
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Thats all well and good but that does not take away that the entry salary is dogmuck............All well and good that their pensions are ridiculous (as they should be).

So what's the wrecking ball? Stonewall them, lose them, make the job so unattractive that we have to rely on cheaper options from overseas, oh then Reform bang the immigration drum and people complain on here about the lack of resources for others because of foreign workforce and then the cycle of it continues like a self fulfiled prophesy
 
Grays_1890 said:
Thats all well and good but that does not take away that the entry salary is dogmuck............All well and good that their pensions are ridiculous (as they should be).

So what's the wrecking ball? Stonewall them, lose them, make the job so unattractive that we have to rely on cheaper options from overseas, oh then Reform bang the immigration drum and people complain on here about the lack of resources for others because of foreign workforce and then the cycle of it continues like a self fulfiled prophesy
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Well Australia will happily take them we are always advertising in the UK for doctors & nurses. Me I'd pay them whatever they want because when you really need them they just might save your life.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Thats all well and good but that does not take away that the entry salary is dogmuck............All well and good that their pensions are ridiculous (as they should be).

So what's the wrecking ball? Stonewall them, lose them, make the job so unattractive that we have to rely on cheaper options from overseas, oh then Reform bang the immigration drum and people complain on here about the lack of resources for others because of foreign workforce and then the cycle of it continues like a self fulfiled prophesy
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Dogmuck?
From the NHS:
- to begin your foundation training as a doctor your starting salary is £38.8K - £44.4K. For basically an apprenticeship.
- To begin your specialist training the starting salary is £52.6K - £73.9K
- Once you've completed your training and you are a qualified doctor your salary start is £61.5K - £99.2K. Specialty grade doctors start on £100.8k - £111.4K
- salaried GPs base start is £76K - £114K but they are essentially self employed contractors and will therefore normally also get partnership income on top.

there are more applicants to medical school than places so theres no recruitment problem.
 
kb 1984 said:
Well Australia will happily take them we are always advertising in the UK for doctors & nurses. Me I'd pay them whatever they want because when you really need them they just might save your life.
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"I'd pay them whatever they want" isnt a realistic policy position though is it? People can't have it both ways. They can't have a public health service with no private funding entirely reliant on public financing and also have "we should just give them what they want". If you want doctors to be paid what they're paid in America and Australia then you need to accept at least a part-insurance based model.
 
kb 1984 said:
Well Australia will happily take them we are always advertising in the UK for doctors & nurses. Me I'd pay them whatever they want because when you really need them they just might save your life.
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I would pay them something decent..........£36,000 as a starting point for that job thats 4 years after 5 of study.

I don't get where we come from with this when you talk about a critical public service, like they are some sweaty betty sat in the Passport Office in Croydon civil service just makes me cringer.

There is a weird expectation in this country because its been there for free and for so long that the reason it got there, AKA off the backs of passionate people working to cover the gaps on low money.........that it should remain that way forever.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Dogmuck?
From the NHS:
- to begin your foundation training as a doctor your starting salary is £38.8K - £44.4K. For basically an apprenticeship.
- To begin your specialist training the starting salary is £52.6K - £73.9K
- Once you've completed your training and you are a qualified doctor your salary start is £61.5K - £99.2K. Specialty grade doctors start on £100.8k - £111.4K
- salaried GPs base start is £76K - £114K but they are essentially self employed contractors and will therefore normally also get partnership income on top.

there are more applicants to medical school than places so theres no recruitment problem.
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Of course its Dogmuck, we are talking about Jnr Drs here......

Jnr Drs 38k out the trap after 5 years of study to get there and are officially fully qualified Drs, so no, not just an apprenticeship, that's severely watering down what they are doing.

And you might not agree with this, but as a socialist who thinks what Drs do in this country within the NHS is nothing short of incredible, they are at all levels front and centre of every cultural change in this country be it Covid, be it economic impacts of living in a major city and having to find £1700 a month rent out of £3000, be it the increasing shifts because the population swell which means they are now seeing 20% mote people than 10 years go.

Spending two visits to A&E in 6 months, having weeks in care myself recently, I can tell you first hand how much patch work these people have to do in an increasingly poor infrastructure.

Maybe attack the bloating in management costs and 3rd party contracts before we attack those whose face to face care is some of the lifeblood of this country.

Yeh they deserve it IMO
 
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Grays_1890 said:
Hence why there is a national shortage hence why 35% of them come from abroad ................. much to the ironic dismay of Reform...........
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People don't have an issue with doctors, lawyers, bankers etc... emigrating to this country. They have a positive contribution.
Controlled immigration isn't the same as no immigration.
Most countries on the planet have controlled immigration. Why can't we?
 
kb 1984 said:
No but they are not asking for the world are they. I think what they are asking for is reasonable. I would pay them more we have to stop taking doctors & nurses for granted or we will loose them. That includes us in Oz
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They're asking for a 29% pay increase, which would represent a baseline additional cost to public finances of over £500 million annually including additional pension contributions but that doesnt include the additional cost of overtime payments and pension liabilities (to cover the gap between what is guaranteed to be paid to them on retirement and the value of their pension funds built up from contributions).

Nobody is taking them for granted but given the state of current public finances and the current rate of inflation, I dont think what they're asking for is reasonable at all.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
They're asking for a 29% pay increase, which would represent a baseline additional cost to public finances of over £500 million annually including additional pension contributions but that doesnt include the additional cost of overtime payments and pension liabilities (to cover the gap between what is guaranteed to be paid to them on retirement and the value of their pension funds built up from contributions).

Nobody is taking them for granted but given the state of current public finances and the current rate of inflation, I dont think what they're asking for is reasonable at all.
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25% would come back in income tax/ni. Everything they spend would face vat 17%. Boost other jobs, businesses (unless it was going out of the country). Which in turn would create tax revenue.

The simplistic view it would cost blah, blah is nonsense.
 
Lilbaz said:
People don't have an issue with doctors, lawyers, bankers etc... emigrating to this country. They have a positive contribution.
Controlled immigration isn't the same as no immigration.
Most countries on the planet have controlled immigration. Why can't we?
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Well one of the major arguments for Brexit was a fair wage for local workers like Brickies and other trades to have a better chance of a fairer wage than employing cheaper from abroad, so its really different cheeks to the same arse in many respects.

And a couple of plonkers on here (although they might have been the ones that got banned) wanted to see an end to all of it and self sooth from the loss of the 7m workforce
 
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