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Passing Chalkboards thread

What are you talking about? we played better second half and won the game?

As i said in the match thread, i saw the "should have scored a hat trick" chances you was referring to and i wasn't surprised one bit that you had indeed exaggerated.

Were the BBC exaggerating in the link I posted? The general consensus at the time in the match thread (only you and a fervent anti-ABV poster - can't remember who it was) suggested it was innacurate.

We played better second half, but that's like saying gang rape is 'better' than genocide.
 
They had 8 shots in the first half, 3 on target - I would have been disappointed if we had had those 8 shots and not scored 3 of them. Osman alone had two nailed on that we had no right to expect not to go in. I don't think we'd have reason for complaint had another of his gone in either.

Would you agree that the best chance was the Osman volley? It was from outside the box and even though it was really well struck and close to the post Lloris saved it. It was a difficult volley to strike and with Lloris saving it as well as he struck it I don't think he scores that one all that often.

Like I said though, I agree that we were poor in the opening 10 minutes. As did Sherwood. I just think some of the reactions have been over the top, perhaps influenced strongly by those opening 10 minutes? But I don't think we were poor for the rest of the game.

I think our opinions differ on the situation when he took over but that's probably a different discussion. I certainly don't think that conceding early has been a problem - according to the Grauniad we've conceded once in the first 10 over the last 20 matches. We may have been lucky like yesterday, but 20 matches (along with my biased memory) is a decent enough sample to suggest that the problem is of Timmeh's making.

Yeah, let's leave that discussion, I'm sick and tired of the AVB discussions.

I'm guessing that one time was the City game? First 10 seems like a cherry picked sample though, we've been starting slowly in many games this season.

I think your conclusion that this problem is Sherwood's fault is too superficial.

He's also noted the the gap in front of the defence and our lack of creativity in the final third are problems but they've not been fixed.

I think we have improved in terms of creativity, chances created and certainly in terms of goals scored. Again I think you're asking a lot if you're asking Sherwood to "fix" our problem of creativity in the final third in 10 games mid season considering when he took over. We might disagree about exactly how much trouble we were in at that time, but surely we I can't dance that the final third creativity problem was more than just a small issue.

I think Sandro returning will help sort out some of the problems we're seeing with space in front of the back 4, but at the danger of opening up the AVB can of worms there were certainly times when that space was there before Sherwood took over too. And I think you can guess the games I'm referring to.

In the end only time will tell if Sherwood can sort out some of these problems, all I'm saying is that complaining about Sherwood not fixing it yet seems harsh, particularly when in some of these areas there has been improvement.
 
Were the BBC exaggerating in the link I posted? The general consensus at the time in the match thread (only you and a fervent anti-ABV poster - can't remember who it was) suggested it was innacurate.

We played better second half, but that's like saying gang rape is 'better' than genocide.

Well no....

It was 0-0, we played **** according to you...the end result was 1-0...we played better. Doesn't that mean Sherwood's motivational skills worked?
 
and i'm saying those chances were no where near clear cut. Clear cut chances is what Saudi Sportswashing Machine had against us in a 15 minute period where they opened us up and had three 1 on 1's......your description led me to believe it was the same yesterday but having seen the chances it was nothing of the sort.
 
and i'm saying those chances were no where near clear cut. Clear cut chances is what Saudi Sportswashing Machine had against us in a 15 minute period where they opened us up and had three 1 on 1's......your description led me to believe it was the same yesterday but having seen the chances it was nothing of the sort.

Spot on and a very good comparison!
 
Pleased to note that Lloris's stats support my observation in the ratings thread that his distribution has improved significantly: 14/20 successful versus Everton compared with just 3/17 in the previous game versus Hull.

Noticed he was looking much more to throw rather than kick or pass out to a wide defender rather than just welly it, the exception being when circumstances dictated he had no choice. At last!
 
Squawka has him down with one headed clearance on the left side corner of our box, might be the incident you're talking about.

I've always assumed that they make mistakes somewhere between occasionally and somewhat frequently depending on definitions. As long as those mistakes aren't biased and are just errors in the data entry it doesn't invalidate the stats overall.

Edit: SteveAWOL: The incident I'm talking about at the squawka site is between the 40th and 45th minute.

Cheers. I just had a quick look at the footage for when you said (galeforce said in the Lennon thread that it occurred in the 2nd half) and saw the header Aaron made in the 45th minute to cut out Pienaar' cross field ball, which is identified as the green circle on the chalkboard. I suppose that they can only mark an incident as being one thing or another and it was a primarily a clearance.

...
I think our opinions differ on the situation when he took over but that's probably a different discussion. I certainly don't think that conceding early has been a problem - according to the Grauniad we've conceded once in the first 10 over the last 20 matches. We may have been lucky like yesterday, but 20 matches (along with my biased memory) is a decent enough sample to suggest that the problem is of Timmeh's making.
...

We've yet to score a goal in the opening 15 minutes of a Premier League game this season (a feat only matched by Fulham) and have conceded 5 goals in that period of games (against City, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Liverpool under AVB's watch, City and Hull under TS) which is on par with ManU and Southampton.

Pleased to note that Lloris's stats support my observation in the ratings thread that his distribution has improved significantly: 14/20 successful versus Everton compared with just 3/17 in the previous game versus Hull.

Noticed he was looking much more to throw rather than kick or pass out to a wide defender rather than just welly it, the exception being when circumstances dictated he had no choice. At last!

It was good to see Hugo complete more successful passes than he failed for a change!
 
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ah ok, memory failed there then

yes it was a defensive action but it was still a perfectly placed pass IMO, surely it can be 2 things, would it be marked as both if he had taken a touch before passing inside?
 
Would you agree that the best chance was the Osman volley? It was from outside the box and even though it was really well struck and close to the post Lloris saved it. It was a difficult volley to strike and with Lloris saving it as well as he struck it I don't think he scores that one all that often.

Like I said though, I agree that we were poor in the opening 10 minutes. As did Sherwood. I just think some of the reactions have been over the top, perhaps influenced strongly by those opening 10 minutes? But I don't think we were poor for the rest of the game.

I think that if you give a Premiership footballer as much space on the edge of the box as we did Osman they'll score a lot like that. The difference between Osman and the top players is that they can do it without the space.

He certainly should have scored the one to the top left too - there was a camera angle from behind him that showed just how much space and time he had. He had a pretty large space to aim into, time to pick that shot and Lloris was unsighted behind a few defenders. He pushed the shot (for want of a better term) left of the post when he clearly tried to curl it to the right. Again, I would be very disappointed if one of our more technical players couldn't put that shot in within those parameters.

The header is more debatable - there were bodies around but it was a free header not far out. Again, we'd expect that to go in if it was us.


Yeah, let's leave that discussion, I'm sick and tired of the AVB discussions.

I'm guessing that one time was the City game? First 10 seems like a cherry picked sample though, we've been starting slowly in many games this season.

I'm only using 10 minutes because that's the data available - I was really talking about the first 6 minutes as that's the period in which Everton could easily have scored 3 goals.

It's also the period over which you'd expect the manager to have the most influence - if the players aren't following instructions 10 minutes after being sat in front of the manager then there are bigger problems than even I think there are. The two things a team should absolutely be after leaving a dressing room are motivated and organised - we were neither.

I think your conclusion that this problem is Sherwood's fault is too superficial.

It may be inaccurate to say it's Sherwood's fault, but it's a problem that's sprung up on his watch.

I think we have improved in terms of creativity, chances created and certainly in terms of goals scored. Again I think you're asking a lot if you're asking Sherwood to "fix" our problem of creativity in the final third in 10 games mid season considering when he took over. We might disagree about exactly how much trouble we were in at that time, but surely we I can't dance that the final third creativity problem was more than just a small issue.

I think Sandro returning will help sort out some of the problems we're seeing with space in front of the back 4, but at the danger of opening up the AVB can of worms there were certainly times when that space was there before Sherwood took over too. And I think you can guess the games I'm referring to.

In the end only time will tell if Sherwood can sort out some of these problems, all I'm saying is that complaining about Sherwood not fixing it yet seems harsh, particularly when in some of these areas there has been improvement.

I don't think the creativity is fixed at all. I think bringing Ade back has resulted in more goals but again, probably better that we don't get into the pros and cons of Ade as I think we've both drawn our lines in the sand regarding that. Obviously he's also committing more players forward, but I don't think the question was ever how to commit more forwards, it was how to do so without losing control of the midfield (something I think we've failed to do).

Sandro will certainly help, but again I really worry if Timmeh is either not able to get a player to screen the back four or has decided not to do so. Sandro is the best player we have for the job, but it's not as if the job is being done badly by another player, it's not being done at all.

I agree that fixing the final third creativity is a massive job. It's not something that I believe can be done quickly though - it's the most technical part of what a team does and the easiest to get wrong. The whole team must be used to the system, they all have to know each other very well and play in a manner where they almost know what the others will do at any given time. That takes a good bit of time to do - especially with the upheaval we've had and I don't think 6 months is anywhere near like the time required to do that.
 
I think that if you give a Premiership footballer as much space on the edge of the box as we did Osman they'll score a lot like that. The difference between Osman and the top players is that they can do it without the space.

He certainly should have scored the one to the top left too - there was a camera angle from behind him that showed just how much space and time he had. He had a pretty large space to aim into, time to pick that shot and Lloris was unsighted behind a few defenders. He pushed the shot (for want of a better term) left of the post when he clearly tried to curl it to the right. Again, I would be very disappointed if one of our more technical players couldn't put that shot in within those parameters.

The header is more debatable - there were bodies around but it was a free header not far out. Again, we'd expect that to go in if it was us.


I'm only using 10 minutes because that's the data available - I was really talking about the first 6 minutes as that's the period in which Everton could easily have scored 3 goals.

It's also the period over which you'd expect the manager to have the most influence - if the players aren't following instructions 10 minutes after being sat in front of the manager then there are bigger problems than even I think there are. The two things a team should absolutely be after leaving a dressing room are motivated and organised - we were neither.

It may be inaccurate to say it's Sherwood's fault, but it's a problem that's sprung up on his watch.

It's a problem that's returned, or stayed as it was certainly there in several of AVB's final games and a problem that's been there in the past too under various managers.

It's a mentality thing, and a solid professional mentality is very difficult to instill into a group of players, one of the reasons I was so patient with AVB as you may remember.

I don't think the creativity is fixed at all. I think bringing Ade back has resulted in more goals but again, probably better that we don't get into the pros and cons of Ade as I think we've both drawn our lines in the sand regarding that. Obviously he's also committing more players forward, but I don't think the question was ever how to commit more forwards, it was how to do so without losing control of the midfield (something I think we've failed to do).

Sandro will certainly help, but again I really worry if Timmeh is either not able to get a player to screen the back four or has decided not to do so. Sandro is the best player we have for the job, but it's not as if the job is being done badly by another player, it's not being done at all.

I agree that fixing the final third creativity is a massive job. It's not something that I believe can be done quickly though - it's the most technical part of what a team does and the easiest to get wrong. The whole team must be used to the system, they all have to know each other very well and play in a manner where they almost know what the others will do at any given time. That takes a good bit of time to do - especially with the upheaval we've had and I don't think 6 months is anywhere near like the time required to do that.

I don't think our improvement is only down to Ade, I think the inclusion of Bentaleb has helped as well and there seems to be more of a focus on quicker forward passing in general.

Screening the back 4 is not being done by anyone? Are you serious or is this just more hyperbole? We've looked open at times, but we haven't been consistently picked apart by anyone bar the best attacking team in the league and they did the same to us under AVB. After those opening 10 minutes against Everton where we agree that we were poor how many proper chances did Everton create? We're talking about a good football team here, only United have scored more than Everton of the teams outside the current top 4 this season and they created very little. How is this possible with "no one screening the back 4"?
 
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Screening the back 4 is not being done by anyone? Are you serious or is this just more hyperbole? We've looked open at times, but we haven't been consistently picked apart by anyone bar the best attacking team in the league and they did the same to us under AVB. After those opening 10 minutes against Everton where we agree that we were poor how many proper chances did Everton create? We're talking about a good football team here, only United have scored more than Everton of the teams outside the current top 4 this season and they created very little. How is this possible with "no one screening the back 4"?

Mostly it's made possible with Rose and Walker's pace. Our central defenders are stepping up to meet that player 'in the hole' a lot more than I'd like (I don't believe a CD pairing should ever split if possible) and our fullbacks are tucking in to cover. We obviously have midfielders in the middle of the pitch, but I don't often see them tracking that player - Osman in this case. Whilst obviously the moments when that player is marked and doesn't receive the pass won't stick in the mind, the number of occasions when a player in that position has space against us is worrying.

And if we're rating Everton as an opponent, I believe I heard that they've now gone 5 away matches with only 1 win - that's not someone we should be fearing at home.
 
Mostly it's made possible with Rose and Walker's pace. Our central defenders are stepping up to meet that player 'in the hole' a lot more than I'd like (I don't believe a CD pairing should ever split if possible) and our fullbacks are tucking in to cover. We obviously have midfielders in the middle of the pitch, but I don't often see them tracking that player - Osman in this case. Whilst obviously the moments when that player is marked and doesn't receive the pass won't stick in the mind, the number of occasions when a player in that position has space against us is worrying.

And if we're rating Everton as an opponent, I believe I heard that they've now gone 5 away matches with only 1 win - that's not someone we should be fearing at home.

Something something, form is temporary...

They've been in poor form, I believe at least in part coinciding with injury problems at the back that they have now overcome.

I don't think our back 4 is solid enough to keep a team as good as Everton as quiet as that without protection.
 
Edit: read them wrong.

Lloris dropped one on Lennon's head when he was out on the left wing (yes Lennon) but I don't see any blue arrows there, ergo all of the chalkboards are wrong.
 
Something something, form is temporary...

They've been in poor form, I believe at least in part coinciding with injury problems at the back that they have now overcome.

I don't think our back 4 is solid enough to keep a team as good as Everton as quiet as that without protection.

Form is temporary, class is permanent is the phrase you were looking for. ;)
 
The biggest show for me on those is the disappointing lack of passes into the box by Dembele and Paulinho. Also we need to super glue lennon to the right had byline.
 
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