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Paris

I don't think that it is possible or desirable for Europe to close its boarders.

We also do not know who was behind these attacks yet. I think that it would be a mistake to assume that it was first generation immigrants or people from outside the country. That has not been the case in similar incidents before.
To a certain degree the people involved are irrelevant as a border security check I'd only going to flag people with a history/intelligence about them.
The larger question is how they got automatic guns into a country with such tight gun laws - I think there is a case for amending Schengen for "unrestricted movement" between countries,but with security checks. That may not have stopped this happening,but it may have made it harder and thus led to more intelligence. I also think of the guy on the train from Belgium to France - tighter cross border security would surely have flagged him?

With the incidents over the past few years it is clearly far too easy to get those types of guns into France.
 
There is a great deal of backing for the Russian action in Syria from many in European governments. These governments cannot act as they would like to as they have not the political will.
We should have sorted the and stabilised Syria under the current setup. Once the fighting was stopped or died down pressured for democracy.

We the west pored petrol on the fire.
 
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Do we really see people planning a suicide by cop for months and months? Are they calm as seen from the outside in the immediate buildup to their confrontation? That might happen, but I don't think it's the norm as it seems to be with terrorists.

I think if you look at human history it makes a lot more sense if you assume that most people actually (for the most part) believe in the religious ideas they claim to believe in. All those beliefs are pretty much equally nonsensical from the outside. There are obviously people that fake a belief in GHod or an afterlife, or people that don't believe with as much conviction or security as they claim. But I don't see any reason to believe that suicide terrorists are over represented in that.

I think they want to believe, which I think is quite different from actually believing

at the defining moment I expect the most common thought is, oh brick
 
Bastards... (And I don't mean that in a good way)

Thoughts with the French and Parisians... I hope they respond as well as they did after the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

I think it's way premature to talk about



Don't forget about the hatred and contempt...

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Agreed on the first point. Let's not react to these idiots by doing something that limits our freedom. It's part of what they want, it's part of what terrorists have gotten in the US... I trust the French to be smarter than that.

Agreed on the second point too. Seen way too many comments online hinting about refugees causing this. Not saying Scara or anyone else on here are saying that just to be clear.

They want destruction and restriction of "our" lives - we should respond with small amendments to carry on our lives - like we did with increased airport security checks and liquid limits.
Make our lives work in spite of "their" idiotic barbarity
 
To a certain degree the people involved are irrelevant as a border security check I'd only going to flag people with a history/intelligence about them.
The larger question is how they got automatic guns into a country with such tight gun laws - I think there is a case for amending Schengen for "unrestricted movement" between countries,but with security checks. That may not have stopped this happening,but it may have made it harder and thus led to more intelligence. I also think of the guy on the train from Belgium to France - tighter cross border security would surely have flagged him?

With the incidents over the past few years it is clearly far too easy to get those types of guns into France.

How do you close a border that large? Even if you could do it, would it make us significantly safer? If someone is minded to do an attack like this they will find a means. Restricting freedom and increasing fear of the "other" is what they want.
 
How do you close a border that large? Even if you could do it, would it make us significantly safer? If someone is minded to do an attack like this they will find a means. Restricting freedom and increasing fear of the "other" is what they want.

All very fair points
How was the French border secured pre-schengen? I was too young to travel then, so don't know
I love Schengen, but if ( and I say "if", not just as a reaction to Paris but as a general information point) it is high risk to have a system like Schengen in the modern political climate then maybe an amendment is needed
I champion freedom to move between EU countries, but maybe the freedom of movement needs to be in conjunction with background checks.
My point about narrowing borders is to make it harder to get weapons in, which increases the opportunity for security services to gather intelligence
 
Bringing football into this - we should NOT cancel the match on Tuesday. fudge the terrorist! Lets not let them dictate.
 
To a certain degree the people involved are irrelevant as a border security check I'd only going to flag people with a history/intelligence about them.
The larger question is how they got automatic guns into a country with such tight gun laws - I think there is a case for amending Schengen for "unrestricted movement" between countries,but with security checks. That may not have stopped this happening,but it may have made it harder and thus led to more intelligence. I also think of the guy on the train from Belgium to France - tighter cross border security would surely have flagged him?

With the incidents over the past few years it is clearly far too easy to get those types of guns into France.

We see smuggling of huge quantities of drugs as well as relatively large scale human trafficking going on. Across borders at least as safe as what you're describing and across much greater distances than what we see within Europe.

I'm not surprised people also manage to smuggle firearms, ammunition and explosives. I don't think border security checks within Schengen would stop that.

They want destruction and restriction of "our" lives - we should respond with small amendments to carry on our lives - like we did with increased airport security checks and liquid limits.
Make our lives work in spite of "their" idiotic barbarity

This I agree with. Carry on with our lives. Let's not do what the US did after 9/11. Let's not attempt to become 100% secure from terrorist attacks. Small amendments are fine, but there needs to be a real analysis of cost and benefit.

How do you close a border that large? Even if you could do it, would it make us significantly safer? If someone is minded to do an attack like this they will find a means. Restricting freedom and increasing fear of the "other" is what they want.

No security expert, but I fail to see how it would make things much safer. The US border with Mexico is just about infinitely more secured and guarded than any Schengen border crossing. Still people, drugs and weapons are pretty much flowing across.

We're talking about a relatively small quantity of weapons here. What? 8 assault rifles, ammunition and some explosives? You could fit that in a single car or boat... A single man could carry that across a border somewhere remote on foot in a week or less.
 
Bringing football into this - we should NOT cancel the match on Tuesday. fudge the terrorist! Lets not let them dictate.

I thought it had already been cancelled?

It's an international friendly... I don't think it's a big deal if it's cancelled. At a time of national grief and a national state of emergency hosting a football match and all the security concerns and resources that would entail might just not be worth the hassle.
 
I thought it had already been cancelled?

It's an international friendly... I don't think it's a big deal if it's cancelled. At a time of national grief and a national state of emergency hosting a football match and all the security concerns and resources that would entail might just not be worth the hassle.

So we let them dictate?
No sorry not for me.
 
they've cancelled today's planned sport in France but I don't think a decision has been made regarding the Wembley game
 
So we let them dictate?
No sorry not for me.

Seems "likely to be cancelled" is the message being put out, not actually cancelled yet.

I'd hardly call cancelling an international friendly dictating or winning... It's an international friendly. It's not a big deal. And I really doubt the terrorists would consider it two fingers stuck up to them if does go ahead.

Had it been a competitive game I would have been more inclined to agree with you.
 
Seems "likely to be cancelled" is the message being put out, not actually cancelled yet.

I'd hardly call cancelling an international friendly dictating or winning... It's an international friendly. It's not a big deal. And I really doubt the terrorists would consider it two fingers stuck up to them if does go ahead.

Had it been a competitive game I would have been more inclined to agree with you.

Competitive or not, we should not be pressured by terrorism into canceling anything, even a game of international tiddlywinks.
 
Competitive or not, we should not be pressured by terrorism into canceling anything, even a game of international tiddlywinks.

Yeah, we see this completely differently.

Stuff is already being cancelled as a result of the terrorism, and of course as a way to allow for the grief and immediate secuirity reactions needed to take place after an incident like this. I don't see it as being pressured by terrorism into cancelling. I trust the French to be both brave and sensible enough to make a solid decision on what's best for their country on this. If they feel there's no need for a grand gesture on a game of tiddlywinks or on an international friendly at a time like this I will assume it's not out of fear or pressure, but rather out of sensibly trying to make smart decisions for the here and now.
 
And they need us?

I can ridicule, hate and show contempt for religion without hating all religious people. I certainly don't hate all religious people, at most a very small minority. And I don't hate or ridicule all religious ideas or messages. Though I will enjoy ridicule aimed at a lot of them.

There are many things needed to win a war of ideas. All I'm saying is that ridicule, hate and contempt can be some of those things and a very important part of it. You also need love, understanding, compassion, rationality... and so on and so on.

Your ridicule hate and contempt for religion will be used as a recruiting tool for these bastaards. You would be doing little more than pouring petrol on to the fire.

In terms of what to do, for me this should be seen as a declaration of war. I think it is time (has been for a while) to put ground troops in. Isis are the closest thing to pure evil since the nazis. I think this should be done in conjunction with players on the ground and promises of new nation states for those that fight with us, iraq and syria are little more than poorly concieved western colonial constructs anyway (ignoring strong sectarian fault lines).
 
Yeah, we see this completely differently.

Stuff is already being cancelled as a result of the terrorism, and of course as a way to allow for the grief and immediate security reactions needed to take place after an incident like this. I don't see it as being pressured by terrorism into cancelling. I trust the French to be both brave and sensible enough to make a solid decision on what's best for their country on this. If they feel there's no need for a grand gesture on a game of tiddlywinks or on an international friendly at a time like this I will assume it's not out of fear or pressure, but rather out of sensibly trying to make smart decisions for the here and now.

I can understand events in Paris being cancelled as they clear up after the events of last night.

We will agree to differ on the rest.
 
Your ridicule hate and contempt for religion will be used as a recruiting tool for these bastaards. You would be doing little more than pouring petrol on to the fire.

In terms of what to do, for me this should be seen as a declaration of war. I think it is time (has been for a while) to put ground troops in. Isis are the closest thing to pure evil since the nazis. I think this should be done in conjunction with players on the ground and promises of new nation states for those that fight with us, iraq and syria are little more than poorly concieved western colonial constructs anyway (ignoring strong sectarian fault lines).

Prohibitions (social and legal) on criticism of religion creates a shield for religious opinion to hide behind. Criticism starts and ends with humour in my opinion, you need satire, you need ridicule. If you don't have that right you have no right to criticise. It might be that ridicule is used as a tool of recruitment, it certainly motivated people to attack Charlie Hebdo it seems (although it could have been a symbolic attack that would otherwise have been aimed at another symbol). But there are also benefits to ridule, and the ridiculous deserves to be treated with ridicule regardless of threats of violence and any real or imagined recruitment to violence that results.

We've had way too much protection of religion. And it's gotten us nowhere.

Hate is a very strong word, but one I think is warranted in this situation. It's a word I'm sure the extremists are familiar with. It's an emotion, and although I don't believe in the notion that one cannot control one's emotions at all, or the notion that emotions don't influence action (both notions are rather ridiculous themselves) I believe my emotions on this are justified. Religious groups kill people in large numbers, they incite violence and bigotry. Two quick, non-terrorism examples: I believe religious doctrines are one of the leading causes of increased suffering, suicides and depression amongst gay and lesbian youths. The vatican is spending extraordinary amounts of money protecting and relocating priests accused of raping children, most likely allowing them to go on raping children elsewhere. They've been doing this at least for decades. And catholics from around the world continue to give them money! I don't think it's unjustified to have an emotional response that can be desrcibed as hateful. It says a lot about how much protection religion has enjoyed in our society that reacting to that with hate can be seen as a bad thing. Believe me, I could go on with the examples...

I do find it quite interesting that when discussing the blame of religion for terrorism there's always someone pointing towards socioeconomic reasons to excuse religion. But when it's a question of sensitivity from those critical of religion apparently our words can be really influential and socioeconomic reasons for terrorism are not really brought up. "My" words, my contempt, my humour can apparently drive people to extrimism and terrorism. But the words written by their claimed prophet, GHod's messenger, nope. Socioeconomic reasons.

There are too many other candidates for pure evil for me to agree with the part of your second paragraph comparing them to nazis, other than I think I agree with the rest of your second paragraph. I think the Syrian situation should be a bit of a wake up call to all of those who seem to disagree with all military interventions. Leaving states like this to fester doesn't help the situation, or their suffering population.
 
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