OMT - TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR FC vs stoke

[Mr_B]

Speed kills and the Stoke backline are as slow as statues, thats how this game was won, great tactics by Poch, the only name missing on the scoresheet was Eriksen but obviously some great assists from the Dane, great confidence boosting win against what will likely be a championship side next year.

 

[Roland Beurre]

All of the above is tongue in cheek, BTW, lest anyone starts really doubting my sanity.

I must confess, I do sometimes feel more comfortable when we go a goal down, though, as it then can't get much worse.

 

[paxtonwolf]

Wanyama and Dier for me are good for away games but not sure we can start so slowly without going behind in some games.
Wanyama is a bit off a problem?
Like him but he is a walking yellow, too defensive for my liking as we have Dier, not sure how 'I' would use him in the current setup . Probably making tea.......I do like a cuppa during a game .

That's going to be a problem for him all season. I was convinced he was getting a 2nd yellow for that tackle early in the 2nd half and immediately said get Sissoko on. I am glad Pochettino reacted quickly and hauled him off. As it happened IIRC within minutes of the sub we went 2-0 up.
Personally thought the ref not giving him a 2nd yellow won us the match. We will never know, but 1-0 up with only 10 men for 30+ minutes it could well have been a very different outcome

 

[ringo]

Re Mr. B's post:

"Most fans don't think that, I would say thats very worrying behaviour from a grown man, how are you in other stressful situations in life, do you ask your boss/family to video them talking to you and then watch it later ?"

Mr.B I'm not exactly sure where you are going with this - as a compensatory mechanism for poor performance - but I'm intrigued to find out.

 

[ringo]

I like your thinking.

It is easy to get distracted, though. For instance, I noticed when reading your reply I have now posted enough times to be accorded "Jamie Redknapp" status, and I've got to be better than that, Shirley?

At times during yesterday's game I worried that Sissoko would be the new Roger Morgan (one for the old gits, there!). I can afford that sort of mind-drift when watching a recorded game, but not during a live match.

I'm not sure that that kind of mind-drift can ever be afforded.

 

[Kandi1977]

As someone on Skyscraper forum said, we should start calling Stoke's stadium the 04 Arena

 

[braineclipse]

That's going to be a problem for him all season. I was convinced he was getting a 2nd yellow for that tackle early in the 2nd half and immediately said get Sissoko on. I am glad Pochettino reacted quickly and hauled him off. As it happened IIRC within minutes of the sub we went 2-0 up.
Personally thought the ref not giving him a 2nd yellow won us the match. We will never know, but 1-0 up with only 10 men for 30+ minutes it could well have been a very different outcome

Not bad going picking up only one yellow in his first 4 games. He did get 3 reds for Southampton last season, a bit of a disaster by any standard, but he only got 4 yellows compared to 10 the season before. Hopefully he manages to strike a balance between aggression and being careful for us, he's a lot less effective on a yellow.

2nd yellow in the situation you're talking about would have been very harsh. He tried to stand still, didn't make any real attempt to stop the Stoke player who just ran straight into him after playing the ball past him. First one after the yellow too iirc. Pretty obvious sub at that point though as you point out.

 

[alekaras]

Problem is that teams that maintain an effective high press for longer will cause us problems for longer. See the Liverpool game. Stoke were poor, but even so they managed to cause real problems for us in the opening 15 minutes yesterday. Those are worries, despite us running away with the game once we got the 2nd goal. On another day...

On another day we would have won 4-1 or 4-2.

 

[paxtonwolf]

Not bad going picking up only one yellow in his first 4 games. He did get 3 reds for Southampton last season, a bit of a disaster by any standard, but he only got 4 yellows compared to 10 the season before. Hopefully he manages to strike a balance between aggression and being careful for us, he's a lot less effective on a yellow.

2nd yellow in the situation you're talking about would have been very harsh. He tried to stand still, didn't make any real attempt to stop the Stoke player who just ran straight into him after playing the ball past him. First one after the yellow too iirc. Pretty obvious sub at that point though as you point out.

Tbh I haven't seen it on TV, not included in any highlights. From behind the goal 50 yards away I have to admit it looked a foul there and then. Good to know it wasn't that bad after all, interesting to hear we were denied a penalty. Too far away to see anything at the match, and their highlights screen were never going to show a replay of that (never even showed the goals!)

 

[paxtonwolf]

On another day we would have won 4-1 or 4-2.

And on another day we could have won 6-0, maybe even 7-0, we were that dominant once the 2nd went in

 

[braineclipse]

On another day we would have won 4-1 or 4-2.

I wish that was the case. Quite a few similarities between this game and games we've scraped a win or failed to win in the past.

Vs. Stoke at half time we had 6 shots, they had 6. We had 2 on target, they had 1. Vs. Palace a couple of weeks ago we had 12 shots in the first half, they had 3. We had 5 shots on target, they had 2. We ended up getting the first half lead against Stoke, and at that time we were getting control of the game. But on balance the first half wasn't dominated by either team and had we not gotten the first goal from a fairly close first half the game could have panned out very differently.

Tbh I haven't seen it on TV, not included in any highlights. From behind the goal 50 yards away I have to admit it looked a foul there and then. Good to know it wasn't that bad after all, interesting to hear we were denied a penalty. Too far away to see anything at the match, and their highlights screen were never going to show a replay of that (never even showed the goals!)

The foul is fine. But a yellow would be extremely harsh I think. Though I'm sure "it's been given in the past".

 

[braineclipse]

And on another day we could have won 6-0, maybe even 7-0, we were that dominant once the 2nd went in

Most definitely. But that doesn't remove the concerns about what happened before the 2nd went in.

Most teams will look good once they get a 2 goal lead. Well. Not West Ham perhaps, but most teams...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Tbh I haven't seen it on TV, not included in any highlights. From behind the goal 50 yards away I have to admit it looked a foul there and then. Good to know it wasn't that bad after all, interesting to hear we were denied a penalty. Too far away to see anything at the match, and their highlights screen were never going to show a replay of that (never even showed the goals!)

The first yellow was a joke.... He won the ball and it was cleared before the player went down

The second one was a yellow though but would have been a joke of a sending off

 

[Roland Beurre]

The first yellow was a joke.... He won the ball and it was cleared before the player went down

The second one was a yellow though but would have been a joke of a sending off

He won the ball with his right foot and scythed the player down with his left. A few years ago that would have been OK, but these days they give it as a foul.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He won the ball with his right foot and scythed the player down with his left. A few years ago that would have been OK, but these days they give it as a foul.

Not IMO - but that's why these are margin calls

It's the same with arses one yesterday. If you win the ball first and the man gets caught then that's fine with me, Providing it's not malicious. The rules on it now are quite vague but clearly both refs agreed on the same thing yesterday

 

[Finney Is Back]

Not bad going picking up only one yellow in his first 4 games. He did get 3 reds for Southampton last season, a bit of a disaster by any standard, but he only got 4 yellows compared to 10 the season before. Hopefully he manages to strike a balance between aggression and being careful for us, he's a lot less effective on a yellow.

2nd yellow in the situation you're talking about would have been very harsh. He tried to stand still, didn't make any real attempt to stop the Stoke player who just ran straight into him after playing the ball past him. First one after the yellow too iirc. Pretty obvious sub at that point though as you point out.

Agreed. It would've been one of the worst yellow card decisions I have ever seen. I thought Wanyama reined himself in well after he was on a yellow, both he and Dier will always pick up a fair number of cards by the way that they play. Dier was lucky on at least 2 occasions last season when he should've been given a 2nd yellow (against both Arsenal at home and Chelsea away I have no idea how he stayed on the pitch). Hopefully Dier has learnt from that just as we would hope Wanyama has learnt from his 3 red cards last season.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I wish that was the case. Quite a few similarities between this game and games we've scraped a win or failed to win in the past.

Vs. Stoke at half time we had 6 shots, they had 6. We had 2 on target, they had 1. Vs. Palace a couple of weeks ago we had 12 shots in the first half, they had 3. We had 5 shots on target, they had 2. We ended up getting the first half lead against Stoke, and at that time we were getting control of the game. But on balance the first half wasn't dominated by either team and had we not gotten the first goal from a fairly close first half the game could have panned out very differently.

The foul is fine. But a yellow would be extremely harsh I think. Though I'm sure "it's been given in the past".

It's all about fighting for the right to play. When you go away somewhere like Stoke you know it will be a battle first and foremost. You generally have to defend well to negotiate a tough first little portion of the game and then roll up your sleeves and battle for a large part of the rest of the first half . If you can get through the first 30 or 35 minutes without the opposition having much of a sniff at goal then you tend to quieten the crowd and as a bit of energy drains from the opposition you can make your superior ability on the ball count.

I thought we did it perfectly on Saturday. The first 10 we were under the cosh but defended well. The next 20 to 25 minutes we matched their work rate, battled and ensured they couldn't get on top and gradually got on top as we found more time on the ball and got our better players on the ball further up the pitch.

I thought we were always in control of that game from about 10 to 15 minutes in. Even during the first 10 minutes when Stoke were on top and the next 20 minutes when it was quite even I don't remember Lloris having anything to do, whereas Shay Given had to make a few saves.

 

[P.D.]

Wanyama and Dier for me are good for away games but not sure we can start so slowly without going behind in some games.
Wanyama is a bit off a problem?
Like him but he is a walking yellow, too defensive for my liking as we have Dier, not sure how 'I' would use him in the current setup . Probably making tea.......I do like a cuppa during a game .

It's good we can rest Dier too and play Wanyama occasionally with Dembele for instance or Sissoko, gives us better options particularly with the CL and he knows this league already which is good. Haven't been too impressed so far but needs time to work with the squad.

 

[StephenH]

It's good we can rest Dier too and play Wanyama occasionally with Dembele for instance or Sissoko, gives us better options particularly with the CL and he knows this league already which is good. Haven't been too impressed so far but needs time to work with the squad.

Yep I agree.

Poch has to teach him how to stay on his feet when tackling...........or its Hull or high water

 

[braineclipse]

Agreed. It would've been one of the worst yellow card decisions I have ever seen. I thought Wanyama reined himself in well after he was on a yellow, both he and Dier will always pick up a fair number of cards by the way that they play. Dier was lucky on at least 2 occasions last season when he should've been given a 2nd yellow (against both Arsenal at home and Chelsea away I have no idea how he stayed on the pitch). Hopefully Dier has learnt from that just as we would hope Wanyama has learnt from his 3 red cards last season.

The Mascherano effect. Hard tackling defensive midfielders will almost always "get away with one" - particularly if playing for a bigger team. Because referees don't really want to send anyone off and those players are expected to make some fouls in a game. So they will often get that warning instead of a yellow or be allowed a foul and a warning for something after picking up the first yellow.

Important skill for defensive midfielders to master.

It's all about fighting for the right to play. When you go away somewhere like Stoke you know it will be a battle first and foremost. You generally have to defend well to negotiate a tough first little portion of the game and then roll up your sleeves and battle for a large part of the rest of the first half . If you can get through the first 30 or 35 minutes without the opposition having much of a sniff at goal then you tend to quieten the crowd and as a bit of energy drains from the opposition you can make your superior ability on the ball count.

I thought we did it perfectly on Saturday. The first 10 we were under the cosh but defended well. The next 20 to 25 minutes we matched their work rate, battled and ensured they couldn't get on top and gradually got on top as we found more time on the ball and got our better players on the ball further up the pitch.

I thought we were always in control of that game from about 10 to 15 minutes in. Even during the first 10 minutes when Stoke were on top and the next 20 minutes when it was quite even I don't remember Lloris having anything to do, whereas Shay Given had to make a few saves.

We defended alright for the first 10-15 minutes. But Stoke had 5 shots in total and 3 corners in the opening 15 minutes. That for me is not a sign of being "under the cosh, but defending well". We were giving away chances and set pieces at an alarming rate, and one shot in particular could easily have gone in if not for an excellent block (by Alderweireld?).

I definitely think they had more than a sniff at goal and had they taken the lead instead of us in what was on chances and play a fairly close first half I don't think you would have been saying that we did it perfectly in that first half.

We were under the cosh because we failed at playing through their pressure and through midfield. Wanyama and Dier were either passengers or giving the ball away and a mediocre Stoke put us under a lot of pressure. This is not Stoke of old, we were actually a little bit taller than them on average and they're not as aggressive or ruthless as they once were.

It's a small problem in an otherwise good game. But for me it's symptomatic for problems that have been visible all season and thus slightly worrying at this point. Though I do believe the return of Dembele will go some way towards fixing it.