Michael Dawson

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Dawson

I think there's a difference between highlighting something we didn't do well in a single match compared to raising the same criticisms after every single one when we all know that it's not something easily rectified, we might need different players. Maybe the way we play is a deliberate tactic to circumvent the missing pieces from the puzzle?

I'll say it again, a lot of criticism comes from us not playing the way some want to see. Personally I couldn't care less about that. At this moment in time results are what matter. We aren't gung-ho, 100 mph straight from the kick off, but we are nowhere near boring. We try and keep the ball when possible, but we let the other side do a lot of running to tire them out. We aren't great at working our way through a settled defence, but we still have more than enough chances to get the necessary goals in most matches. There has in fact been far less of 'those days' this season. We might not be as entertaining, but I'd rather that than languish in mid table. It's one of those things where AVB can't win. It is virtually impossible to be super entertaining, yet consistently pick up points.

We've become a lot more solid defensively, not just compared to last season, but compared to the start of this one. It's not that long since some still talked about us having a habit of conceding late, something we haven't done since the Everton match in early December. It feels like some are just looking for negatives and refuse to let the idea go once they find something. It's the same with the individual players. Every ratings thread you see the same criticisms, It's like they were written BEFORE the match. Similarly in the other direction, some players always get praise and are almost considered untouchable. Not to the degree it was a few years ago, but it's still there.

As this is the Dawson thread I'll use him as an example. For many years you could not say anything negative about him without risking a lynch mob at your door. I have always been critical of him and he still has the same flaws as he did back then. Ball watching, poor marking, hoofing. We all know this, though some refuse to acknowledge it or simply uses terms like 'heart' or 'passion' to dismiss anyone raising these points. He has improved though over the years and this season as well. Again it feels like you're not allowed to say that it's down to tactics or the other players around him. It's purely down to him. Gallas on the other hand gets nothing but grief, yet he was still part of the team when we stopped conceding late and started keeping clean sheets.

Thing is in recent games he's improved considerably in this respect. He hoofs far less often and when he does it's usually because that's the only option under pressure. He's far more likely nowadays to pass to a midfielder, and when he does this his passing is pretty accurate.

But even on the odd occasion when he does attempt a long pass when building from the back, in recent matches it's often only after the ball has been passed ad nauseum across the back or has been passed back from midfiled and SOMEone has to take responsibility.

If you watch carefully you will notice Vertonghen is more likely to pass across the back to him tha risk a long pass himself.

Furthermore, I'd argue Dawson's long balls out of defence are less often hoofs as such, they are more likely to be measured passes and stand a decent chance of finding one of our own forwards, thereby launching an attack deep in the opponents half. He has even produced the odd peach of late but such is the intensity of prejudice against him it usually goes unrecognised.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Dawson

I have no problem with long passes and it is happening far less now. It's hoofing when under no pressure that gets me. It's basically giving the ball away. No doubt this, for Dawson at least, stems from lower league caching. Get the ball up the pitch as quickly as possible. Under AVB we are becoming more patient. It's impossible to go full speed for 90 minutes, so it's a necessity.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

Okay I'll spell it out for African. What's amazing mate is how much you short-changed a player who's shown such heart and leadership season after season in the past.

Shame on you.

Why don't you 'spell out' what I short-changed him on? I was honest. I did not think he could adapt to the sort of FOOTBALL required to play a high-line defense. It appears the coaches didn't either. Only Daws knew. He proved me, and the coaches, wrong with regards to being able to adapt his game. I applauded that. And I applauded the determination necessary to do so. What's your problem? Go on, spell THAT out! FFS...

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

Thing is in recent games he's improved considerably in this respect. He hoofs far less often and when he does it's usually because that's the only option under pressure. He's far more likely nowadays to pass to a midfielder, and when he does this his passing is pretty accurate.

But even on the odd occasion when he does attempt a long pass when building from the back, in recent matches it's often only after the ball has been passed ad nauseum across the back or has been passed back from midfiled and SOMEone has to take responsibility.

If you watch carefully you will notice Vertonghen is more likely to pass across the back to him tha risk a long pass himself.

Furthermore, I'd argue Dawson's long balls out of defence are less often hoofs as such, they are more likely to be measured passes and stand a decent chance of finding one of our own forwards, thereby launching an attack deep in the opponents half. He has even produced the odd peach of late but such is the intensity of prejudice against him it usually goes unrecognised.

He's been PRAISED IN THIS THREAD FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF HIS GAME!!!!!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

I found it funny - they both highlighted exactly what myself and a few others on here highlighted but we get lambasted as moaners - clearly not the case.

Not picking on you steff baby haha grrrrr. There is just stating the obvious regardless of winning such as what Daws and Vert said in their post match interviews.

No worries DH, others are certainly not impressed by my consistent views on AVB and that's fine. Shame they go to such weird measures to express it, but there we go. I stand by my opinion. It's why I felt Lloris was such a vital signing, he is a high-line keeper, but (and I don't expect you to remember mate) I got caned for saying that for all Brad's skill he was finally ready to be replaced and Lloris would be a great signing. Again, no-one has asked why Wheelchair didn't try and slide those passes through, and looking at the line, we were always in a position to cover or recover with speed or sweeper keeper. The ONLY time we got done was early doors to Giroud, and Verts produced a masterful challenge. Let's face it, the only real speed we had to contend with was Walcott. They had Bale and Lennon. As for being 'lambasted' I'll tell you how it feels if you want mate :lol:

 

[Robspur12]

Re: Dawson

Steff, I can see you are a tottenham man through and through so I must admit the way that you were so blase about selling Dawson in the summer I was dissapointed with you more than most. When you see C***t bell on MOTD2 it reminds you what an amazing contrast Dawson provides and what a rare commodity in football , one the club should cherish. As well as a leader and a fighter what a lot of posters seem not to acknowledge is he is a very very good player. The things I hear from posters against Dawson astonish me frankly. As a defender he has impressed me since his very first game in a spurs shirt.

 

[Bullet]

Re: Dawson

I think there's a difference between highlighting something we didn't do well in a single match compared to raising the same criticisms after every single one.

It feels like some are just looking for negatives and refuse to let the idea go once they find something. It's the same with the individual players. Every ratings thread you see the same criticisms, It's like they were written BEFORE the match.

Dawson .... I have always been critical of him and he still has the same flaws as he did back then. Ball watching, poor marking, hoofing. We all know this

So we shouldn't raise the same criticisms over and over again... we shouldn't have preconceived ideas about players... yet you've always been critical of Dawson and he still has all those flaws.

OK mate, the irony isn't lost on me!

 

[Roy1983]

Re: Dawson

One rule for one....

 

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Dawson

Why don't you 'spell out' what I short-changed him on? I was honest. I did not think he could adapt to the sort of FOOTBALL required to play a high-line defense. It appears the coaches didn't either. Only Daws knew. He proved me, and the coaches, wrong with regards to being able to adapt his game. I applauded that. And I applauded the determination necessary to do so. What's your problem? Go on, spell THAT out! FFS...

Did you or did you not say 'at the time Daws was not the player he is now' ?

Shame on you.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

Steff, I can see you are a tottenham man through and through so I must admit the way that you were so blase about selling Dawson in the summer I was dissapointed with you more than most. When you see C***t bell on MOTD2 it reminds you what an amazing contrast Dawson provides and what a rare commodity in football , one the club should cherish. As well as a leader and a fighter what a lot of posters seem not to acknowledge is he is a very very good player. The things I hear from posters against Dawson astonish me frankly. As a defender he has impressed me since his very first game in a spurs shirt.

I think it's very important that I make a couple of things clear.

1) Michael Dawson's character was never EVER in question. He obviously had a strong one and a good one. I've met the man.I'm fully aware.

2) My comments about his potential sale at the start of the season were as much resignation as anything else. I simply could not see where he would fit into the high-line game. I don't believe I was the only person to think that. I loved the man but had resigned myself to the fact he would most likely move on despite being club captain and our UA ambassador.

3) Again, please try and understand what I was saying about the player. I was NOT calling him 'crap' or 'poor' or any of it. I was saying he did not seem to be suited to the high-line game, in effect being more of a John Terry than a Rio Ferdinand. I don't think that's anything other than accurate. A warrior, yes. A high-line, ball-playing CB? Not as much.

4) I have PERSONALLY been blown away by how hard he has worked this season to prove (and IMprove) himself as a footballer, how he has stepped up and forced the manager to reconsider, and how he has re-established himself as our captain and leader. It takes massive massive guts, heart and application. I learned that not only did he have the character I already knew about, he had ten times more than that.

If you always knew he could be a high-line defender, then hats off to you, you're a visionary.
I didn't.
I don't see it as 'shame on me' or ANY of the other frankly vitriolic gonad*S that some people have thrown around.
I see it as being honest.

I appreciate your post mate, at least you're looking to discuss.
I hope my answer has clarified my standpoint.

The saddest thing? It's all come from a very Dawson-positive post I put up. I think a few people here just love to get a swing in on someone with the word 'mod' by their name. Not you BTW. And I think it's pathetic.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

Did you or did you not say 'at the time Daws was not the player he is now' ?

Shame on you.

Well shame on you too!

Here's what you wrote on March 4th. In this thread.

<<Yes, noticed that too, he's definitely reigning in the long hoofs. Would imagine AVB and his coaching staff have been working on it with him. Didn't notice any at all yesterday.

But on the occasions when he does look for a long range pass nowadays it's usually that much more accurate than in previous years and he's actually been known to produce the odd peach too.>>

Again, at the time we nearly sold him, he was NOT the player he is NOW.
I mean, if you also want to argue with yourself, go right ahead...

 

[ArcspacE]

Re: Dawson

So we shouldn't raise the same criticisms over and over again... we shouldn't have preconceived ideas about players... yet you've always been critical of Dawson and he still has all those flaws.

OK mate, the irony isn't lost on me!

:ross:

 

[superfaisty]

Re: Dawson

Got to say I'm with Steff on this one. I honestly thought that Daws would go because he didn't have the pace to play the high line.

But Daws has proved he is one in a million of top flight footballers, willing to put in all the hours and hard work needed to force his way back into the team and so so humble with it.

Football could do with a lot more Dawsons than Terrys that's for sure.

 

[Notmegov]

Re: Dawson

Yep I thought Dawson was a very good old style clogger of a center back... I did not think he had speed or the footballing intelligence to play in the new system.

I have been proved wrong he has been fantastic. I Kaboul will have a lot of figjting to do to claim his place back.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Dawson

What's amazing?

The way in which he decided to knuckle down and take on the challenge of new requirements from our CBs, including playing a higher line and learning to pass better? You are correct Sir! I agree! Daws is amazing, and I am so glad it has all worked out. Again, he showed more character, courage and fortitude than anyone could've imagined...

I'm convinced now that you dont see what i see. i find that odd

i dont know about high lines....you have to give someone a chance to prove themselves before you make the claim they cant play it. anything else is just...rash.

as for passing...there has never been anything wrong with dawsons passing. and for you to think that a 28 year old footbvaller suddenly learnt to pass better in 2 or 3 months in comparison to their 15 year pro footballing career....well i dont know what to say about that one. again like i said, i find that kind of thought process a bit odd. players can get better but it will take time...they dont wake up one morning and learn a new skill

the bit that i find 'amazing' is that you said that dawson is not the player in the summer that he is now. what kind of player was he then? are you once again going to use a short spell of bad form as a definitive guage of someone's ability? irrespective of what they have CONSISTENTLY proven in the past?

this bit that surprised you about dawson was also very interesting
"Again, he showed more character, courage and fortitude than anyone could've imagined..."

character
Courage
Fortitude

THESE are the things that surprised you dawson was able to pull from his arsenal when he needed it?????? Seriously??!!!

out of everyone in our team bar sandro...who else was more likely to have that than Dawson\o/

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Dawson

can someone point me to player statistics where i can compare passing accuracy and long ball passing accuracy?

sometimes its best to just go for the jugular on these things rather than absorb stuff you consider false

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

African. Before firing, read what I wrote to Robspur. If you give a damn. If not, well, carry on shooting I suppose...

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Dawson

yes jugular....as in instead of going round in circles, we can just see what the numbers tell us. if this man has been a bad passer for so long...we'll soon find out

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Dawson

yes jugular....as in instead of going round in circles, we can just see what the numbers tell us. if this man has been a bad passer for so long...we'll soon find out

You haven't read what I've written properly and have missed any point I've made. Again, this was all about whether he could fit into the style and system AVB wanted to play. He has proven a point and then some. He is, incidentally, also a lovely guy.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: Dawson

yes jugular....as in instead of going round in circles, we can just see what the numbers tell us. if this man has been a bad passer for so long...we'll soon find out

Can we settle for the fact that Dawson's technique/ability has always been pretty good in a passing sense but that his decision making has vastly improved this season?