Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Pirate55]

Yes. I don't subscribe to the theory that we need to win meaningless trophies to have one.

And how long will you subscribe to the view that we have a winning mentality if we don't win anything - either this year, next year or perhaps (GHod forbid) never?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I see, I can agree with that but I wouldnt say thats definitely true when I think about the impact winning the FA Cup could have especially on those who are not that experienced - it could make them puff out their chest a bit more, stand that bit taller on the pitch with that bit more belief of being a winner. But lets be honest, who on earth has ever looked back on a team that hasnt won anything and said 'They have a great winning mentality?'

I think braineclipse sums it up well in saying we currently have a good (Id say very good) mentality, and we are gearing towards inheriting a true winning mentality and just need that little bit extra for it to come whether it simply be time/experience, luck or whatever....

You see I find this to be the whole issue in this argument. The idea that winning something will suddenly imbue our players with a winning mentality, as if they didnt have it before.

It cuts both ways. I can certainly see situations where winning a trophy solidifies a teams belief, validates a pre-existing mentality, and so the perception would be that it had somewhat a transformative effect.

However, Ive seen countless sides winning trophies who have gone on the following season with literally no sudden winning mentality at all. A cup can be won on momentum, on luck, on having a really good day at the office - for me winning a trophy (particularly domestic) basically means NOTHING in regards to "winning mentality" unless you already had it to begin with.

The like of Wigan, what did it do for them? Did they go from premier league also rans to solid mid table contenders? No. There was no magical transformation where they woke up the next day with "winning mentality". In fact they got relegated. Twice.

However, if you already had a winning mentality? Earned over seasons of improvement and drive to finish higher? I think winning can solidify that feeling/belief. But it has to be stated, it doesnt mean "Oh look, NOW you have winning mentality!", more like its recognition of all the work that went into building a winning habit all the way up to that point.

 

[Pirate55]

I see, I can agree with that but I wouldnt say thats definitely true when I think about the impact winning the FA Cup could have especially on those who are not that experienced - it could make them puff out their chest a bit more, stand that bit taller on the pitch with that bit more belief of being a winner. But lets be honest, who on earth has ever looked back on a team that hasnt won anything and said 'They have a great winning mentality?'

I think braineclipse sums it up well in saying we currently have a good (Id say very good) mentality, and we are gearing towards inheriting a true winning mentality and just need that little bit extra for it to come whether it simply be time/experience, luck or whatever....

Agree with this and with @braineclipse . We currently have good mentality but not (yet) a winning mentality.

 

[Lemonade Money]

How did all this winning mentality stuff start anyway?

Stop it.

 

[harr1984]

You see I find this to be the whole issue in this argument. The idea that winning something will suddenly imbue our players with a winning mentality, as if they didnt have it before.

It cuts both ways. I can certainly see situations where winning a trophy solidifies a teams belief, validates a pre-existing mentality, and so the perception would be that it had somewhat a transformative effect.

However, Ive seen countless sides winning trophies who have gone on the following season with literally no sudden winning mentality at all. A cup can be won on momentum, on luck, on having a really good day at the office - for me winning a trophy (particularly domestic) basically means NOTHING in regards to "winning mentality" unless you already had it to begin with.

The like of Wigan, what did it do for them? Did they go from premier league also rans to solid mid table contenders? No. There was no magical transformation where they woke up the next day with "winning mentality". In fact they got relegated. Twice.

However, if you already had a winning mentality? Earned over seasons of improvement and drive to finish higher? I think winning can solidify that feeling/belief. But it has to be stated, it doesnt mean "Oh look, NOW you have winning mentality!", more like its recognition of all the work that went into building a winning habit all the way up to that point.

No one has said as far as Im aware that winning a trophy automatically means you have a winning mentality. Again you are saying what everyone is acknowledging in that we are developing our mentality, we've gotten into that winning habit and we are at the final stages - the toughest stage of converting that winning habit into actually winning things. We are close, and it will happen whether its this season, or the next or one after that Im sure it will happen but have to take some knocks first.

But in my opinion and feel free to disagree, you can win a trophy and not have a genuine winners mentality, but you cant claim have a winners mentality as a team and never actually win anything....

 

[Pirate55]

No one has said as far as Im aware that winning a trophy automatically means you have a winning mentality. Again you are saying what everyone is acknowledging in that we are developing our mentality, we've gotten into that winning habit and we are at the final stages - the toughest stage of converting that winning habit into actually winning things. We are close, and it will happen whether its this season, or the next or one after that Im sure it will happen but have to take some knocks first.

But in my opinion and feel free to disagree, you can win a trophy and not have a genuine winners mentality, but you cant claim have a winners mentality as a team and never actually win anything....

Exactly. You beat me to it! Just what I would have answered.

I am just praying that we do indeed manage to convert our current strong mentality and fantastic team into winners with a real winning mentality. I shudder to think what may happen if we don't win anything in the next couple of years. How long before the project will be destroyed by lack of silverware?

 

[billyiddo]

No one has said as far as Im aware that winning a trophy automatically means you have a winning mentality. Again you are saying what everyone is acknowledging in that we are developing our mentality, we've gotten into that winning habit and we are at the final stages - the toughest stage of converting that winning habit into actually winning things. We are close, and it will happen whether its this season, or the next or one after that Im sure it will happen but have to take some knocks first.

But in my opinion and feel free to disagree, you can win a trophy and not have a genuine winners mentality, but you cant claim have a winners mentality as a team and never actually win anything....

Ill put it this way - in order to win the league, for example, you require both the ability and the mentality to do so - now if team A wins the league would it not be fair to say that at some point leading up to securing the title they had the mentality in place to do so? Perhaps it was even there a year or two prior but for one reason or another things just didn't run their way and they missed out through luck or just being up against a better side playing at a higher level - football is a game of fine margins and to pin a lack of success on one factor just doesn't make sense to me and with regards to us i believe we have the mentality in place to go on and win things - ive seen this displayed a whole bunch of times these past couple of seasons, but that's only one factor of the many required.

 

[scaramanga]

And how long will you subscribe to the view that we have a winning mentality if we don't win anything - either this year, next year or perhaps (GHod forbid) never?

For as long as we punch above our weight.

By your logic Exeter could never have a winning mentality because they never win anything, despite being handicapped by real world budget constraints. The reality of the football world is that City should be winning everything every year with their spend. The rest of us will be fighting over the scraps.

 

[harr1984]

Ill put it this way - in order to win the league, for example, you require both the ability and the mentality to do so - now if team A wins the league would it not be fair to say that at some point leading up to securing the title they had the mentality in place to do so? Perhaps it was even there a year or two prior but for one reason or another things just didn't run their way and they missed out through luck or just being up against a better side playing at a higher level - football is a game of fine margins and to pin a lack of success on one factor just doesn't make sense to me and with regards to us i believe we have the mentality in place to go on and win things - ive seen this displayed a whole bunch of times these past couple of seasons, but that's only one factor of the many required.

Yes, I said in a previous post we are just currently missing that something and it could well be that little something is simply a little bit of luck. I believe we have the mentality to go on and win things too, we are on a journey but I just dont thing you can lay claim to having a winners mentality without having actually won anything and that is where the disagreement lies. I dont think either side will budge, and I dont think either side disagrees on the strength of our mentality in general so I dont see this debate going anywhere. I find myself agreeing with 95% of what you guys who think differently are saying

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

No one has said as far as Im aware that winning a trophy automatically means you have a winning mentality. Again you are saying what everyone is acknowledging in that we are developing our mentality, we've gotten into that winning habit and we are at the final stages - the toughest stage of converting that winning habit into actually winning things. We are close, and it will happen whether its this season, or the next or one after that Im sure it will happen but have to take some knocks first.

But in my opinion and feel free to disagree, you can win a trophy and not have a genuine winners mentality, but you cant claim have a winners mentality as a team and never actually win anything....

Certainly not saying you - but some posters are rattling on as if there is no winning mentality until you win something, and the *poof* you have a winning mentality. That despite all the success and strides forward we have made, we dont have it because there are but a handful of games we have lost over the last 4 years.

Those posters, IMHO, are crackers. Its an argument full of holes, no matter how much it gets repeated.

Broadly I agree with your point of view, I dont think its that far apart from mine. Id only contest - very much like Billy says - winning comes down to many more factors than just "winning mentality". And to not win a trophy does not mean you do not possess such a mentality.

I genuinely think this team has a winner mentality. It has been growing steadily for a few seasons now, and we are at a stage where we will face our rivals and perform. Go behind, away, and come back to get a result or even win. In fact, we take points from losing positions better than pretty much anyone, if thats not a winning mentality I dont know what is. I really think this team has shaken off the idea we are "little old Spurs", that we are playing on a level where we dont belong. This team, to my eye at least, knows full well it deserves to be there and is no longer scared of anyone.

Thats a winning mentality I am very happy to acknowledge. And, honestly, should we win the FA cup I think all that would change is that this mentality will finally be recognised.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Yes, I said in a previous post we are just currently missing that something and it could well be that little something is simply a little bit of luck. I believe we have the mentality to go on and win things too, we are on a journey but I just dont thing you can lay claim to having a winners mentality without having actually won anything and that is where the disagreement lies. I dont think either side will budge, and I dont think either side disagrees on the strength of our mentality in general so I dont see this debate going anywhere. I find myself agreeing with 95% of what you guys who think differently are saying

I think perspective is required in this. Context need be applied, as Scara points out.

As a rule the richest clubs win the pots. Top Premiership sides have 4 competitions to win. 1 of which includes the richest clubs across europe (well, actually the world).

Realistically, what should a club like Spurs be winning? What trophy do we have the right to expect?

If you draw the line at winning trophies is the only thing to prove a team has a winning mentality, then honestly I think you need to take a look and have a long hard think about it.

All things are relative. In our own league there are 5 clubs richer than us. Thats 5 clubs, with more resource, we need to out perform to win anything.

It is entirely possible we win nothing, and that would be appropriate to our standing against the competition - are you saying we can never lay claim to a winning mentality? Even when despite a huge deficit in resources we are actually competing with clubs that literally have nation states backing them? When we rarely lose games, compete for the title, secure CL football, top our CL group - on a relative shoestring - but we cant claim a winning mentality?

But winning the FA cup would change that?

Honestly I think that just sounds rather silly.

 

[Pirate55]

For as long as we punch above our weight.

By your logic Exeter could never have a winning mentality because they never win anything, despite being handicapped by real world budget constraints. The reality of the football world is that City should be winning everything every year with their spend. The rest of us will be fighting over the scraps.

WALOB.we have a "winning mentality" as long as we continue to punch above our weight ....and has nothing to do with winning "meaningless" trophies? Piffle of the highest order.

BTW, like Confusios

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think perspective is required in this. Context need be applied, as Scara points out.

As a rule the richest clubs win the pots. Top Premiership sides have 4 competitions to win. 1 of which includes the richest clubs across europe (well, actually the world).

Realistically, what should a club like Spurs be winning? What trophy do we have the right to expect?

If you draw the line at winning trophies is the only thing to prove a team has a winning mentality, then honestly I think you need to take a look and have a long hard think about it.

All things are relative. In our own league there are 5 clubs richer than us. Thats 5 clubs, with more resource, we need to out perform to win anything.

It is entirely possible we win nothing, and that would be appropriate to our standing against the competition - are you saying we can never lay claim to a winning mentality? Even when despite a huge deficit in resources we are actually competing with clubs that literally have nation states backing them? When we rarely lose games, compete for the title, secure CL football, top our CL group - on a relative shoestring - but we cant claim a winning mentality?

But winning the FA cup would change that?

Honestly I think that just sounds rather silly.

I agree with everything you say there, I’ve been following this debate with interest and I think the idea that we need to win a trophy to prove it, when it can come down to luck etc and given the clubs we are competing against, it just isn’t a fair description of what winning mentality should be. Completely agree with that.

But to be fair to @Pirate55 and @harr1984 , we do have a massive opportunity to win the FA Cup this year. We may lose against United and it may not be an indicator of anything other than being unlucky in a one off game. But, it really would be great if we turn it on and beat United and Chelsea when it comes down to it. Banter aside, they are decent teams, but they aren’t better than Spurs. It would be great to not come out of another game bemoaning our poor finishing, bad ref calls or 30 yard screamers from the opposition. It would be great to just fudging win, and not just play well. And to that end, I can see what they are saying. We have a massive chance here, and I’d like to think we can win this trophy.

It won’t necessarily prove anything, and we’ve done more than enough to destroy the old description of ‘Spursyness’ so it isn’t about that. But, you know a lot of people will still back Chelsea in a one off game because they ‘know how to win’ and a lot of people will still back a Mourinho side in a one off game because he knows how to scrape a result. We aren’t seen in that same light, because we haven’t done it yet. We absolutely murdeeed United at Wembley a few weeks back and we beat Chelsea in the form of their lives last season. So we can do it. But we do need to do it in a big, one off game to put that one to bed too. We can’t always be the unlucky ones that deserved more.

 

[RunTMC]

I see, I can agree with that but I wouldnt say thats definitely true when I think about the impact winning the FA Cup could have especially on those who are not that experienced - it could make them puff out their chest a bit more, stand that bit taller on the pitch with that bit more belief of being a winner. But lets be honest, who on earth has ever looked back on a team that hasnt won anything and said 'They have a great winning mentality?'

I think braineclipse sums it up well in saying we currently have a good (Id say very good) mentality, and we are gearing towards inheriting a true winning mentality and just need that little bit extra for it to come whether it simply be time/experience, luck or whatever....

I actually think that's possible. Imagine a non-league semi-pro team defy the odds and make it into the premier league. On the last day of the season they beat the champions away from home and avoid relegation. Now that's a team with a winning mentality, they punched way above their weight despite the odds being stacked heavily against them.

Edit: And if you were to ask people if they had a winning mentality, you would get a fair few saying yes despite them not having won anything

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I agree with everything you say there, I’ve been following this debate with interest and I think the idea that we need to win a trophy to prove it, when it can come down to luck etc and given the clubs we are competing against, it just isn’t a fair description of what winning mentality should be. Completely agree with that.

But to be fair to @Pirate55 and @harr1984 , we do have a massive opportunity to win the FA Cup this year. We may lose against United and it may not be an indicator of anything other than being unlucky in a one off game. But, it really would be great if we turn it on and beat United and Chelsea when it comes down to it. Banter aside, they are decent teams, but they aren’t better than Spurs. It would be great to not come out of another game bemoaning our poor finishing, bad ref calls or 30 yard screamers from the opposition. It would be great to just fudging win, and not just play well. And to that end, I can see what they are saying. We have a massive chance here, and I’d like to think we can win this trophy.

It won’t necessarily prove anything, and we’ve done more than enough to destroy the old description of ‘Spursyness’ so it isn’t about that. But, you know a lot of people will still back Chelsea in a one off game because they ‘know how to win’ and a lot of people will still back a Mourinho side in a one off game because he knows how to scrape a result. We aren’t seen in that same light, because we haven’t done it yet. We absolutely murdeeed United at Wembley a few weeks back and we beat Chelsea in the form of their lives last season. So we can do it. But we do need to do it in a big, one off game to put that one to bed too. We can’t always be the unlucky ones that deserved more.

Absolutely. And theres a key distinction to be drawn - NOBODY (that I can see) is saying they have no interest in winning the cup, or that we shouldnt be giving it our all to do so.

I firmly believe we have it in us to win it, and we should absolutely be going for it.

The distinction comes when people say we HAVE to win to prove our mentality. That, IMO, is hogwash.

If we go out to Utd, or lose in the final, it doesnt mean we dont possess a winning mentality. It could have happened for any number of reasons, mentality not being one of them.

Just as, if we win, we havent suddenly developed such a mentality. Such a foolish notion.

Personally Id like to win just to get that particular monkey off our back, let the press and certain fans move on.

 

[harr1984]

I think perspective is required in this. Context need be applied, as Scara points out.

As a rule the richest clubs win the pots. Top Premiership sides have 4 competitions to win. 1 of which includes the richest clubs across europe (well, actually the world).

Realistically, what should a club like Spurs be winning? What trophy do we have the right to expect?

If you draw the line at winning trophies is the only thing to prove a team has a winning mentality, then honestly I think you need to take a look and have a long hard think about it.

All things are relative. In our own league there are 5 clubs richer than us. Thats 5 clubs, with more resource, we need to out perform to win anything.

It is entirely possible we win nothing, and that would be appropriate to our standing against the competition - are you saying we can never lay claim to a winning mentality? Even when despite a huge deficit in resources we are actually competing with clubs that literally have nation states backing them? When we rarely lose games, compete for the title, secure CL football, top our CL group - on a relative shoestring - but we cant claim a winning mentality?

But winning the FA cup would change that?

Honestly I think that just sounds rather silly.

To me what you describe is a team with a strong mentality, not a team with a true winning mentality. Unfortunately we will never agree with the definition. You ask a focus group of non Spurs fans 'Does the current Spurs team have a winning mentality' What percentage do you think would say yes? You need to back it up with quantifiable success, not just punching above your weight - how many true 'winners' view competing at the highest level as some sort of achievement? The FA Cup alone wont change that IF that is the one and only trophy we win under the Poch era. To me labelling a team or a player a 'winner' who has actually not won anything sounds rather silly...

 

[Spur of the moment]

What exactly IS a winning mentality? Until we can have some kind of is agreement about what it consists of and what it excludes it's hard to see how we can discuss it rationally.

So here's a few (rhetorical) questions.

Should a winning mentality always result in the winning of trophies? If so, how many does a team need to win in order to qualify for this definition?

And should clubs that have a winning mentality be expected to win every competition they enter or are they allowed to lose some of them along the way?

Conversely, is it possible for a club to win a trophy but still be deemed not to have the winning mentality? Did Wigan have it the season they won the LC but were also relegated? Did Arsenal have the winning mentality when they won the FA Cup last season despite finishing as low as sixth in the PL? Did they have the winning mentality more than us that same season despite the fact we finished several places above them in the PL?

If it really is exclusively about winning trophies what about the other competitions that winning clubs will have flunked in the same season? Even when Man U won the treble (CL, PL and FAC) in 1998/99 they were also knocked out of the LC in Round 5 - as it happened by none other than our good selves! If United had the winning mentality that season (and they surely did) how come they also flopped in the LC?

Also, can a club be deemed to have the winning mentality without ever winning a trophy? Which club had more of the winning mentality: United when they won the League with only 21 wins and 75 points in 1996/97 or us with 26 wins and 86 points whilst finishing runners-up last season?

Until these questions are answered clearly one way or another I really don't see how anyone can talk persuasively about whether we have the winning mentality or not.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

To me what you describe is a team with a strong mentality, not a team with a true winning mentality. Unfortunately we will never agree with the definition. You ask a focus group of non Spurs fans 'Does the current Spurs team have a winning mentality' What percentage do you think would say yes? You need to back it up with quantifiable success, not just punching above your weight - how many true 'winners' view competing at the highest level as some sort of achievement? The FA Cup alone wont change that IF that is the one and only trophy we win under the Poch era. To me labelling a team or a player a 'winner' who has actually not won anything sounds rather silly...

With respect, thats a nonsense question. What happens when I say "I think 100% of the imaginary focus group would say say yes"!? You see where that goes....

I think you do a huge dis service to the club by saying "just punching above your weight", and THAT is the core of the differences here.

"Just". Like its easy. Sorry, but no. What we are doing right now is incredible, and for me, far to many fans just take it for granted.

Winning/not winning the FA cup doesnt change my view that we are doing brilliantly right now. And this team displays more winning mentality than any other Ive seen in my time as a fan. Including those that actually won the league and fa cups.

 

[parklane1]

An utter lack of context.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Depends what side of the debate you are sitting mate.

 

[parklane1]

Just a bit of perspective mate. The at the end was to signify it was not to be taken too seriously - but maybe you missed that?

As was my