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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

With respect, thats a nonsense question. What happens when I say "I think 400% of the imaginary focus group would say say yes"!? You see where that goes....

I think you do a huge dis service to the club by saying "just punching above your weight", and THAT is the core of the differences here.

"Just". Like its easy. Sorry, but no. What we are doing right now is incredible, and for me, far to many fans just take it for granted.

Winning/not winning the FA cup doesnt change my view that we are doing brilliantly right now. And this team displays more winning mentality than any other Ive seen in my time as a fan. Including those that actually won the league and fa cups.

Again, I agree with you almost completely there. What we are doing is incredible, spectacular, and I have no time for the people that say we need to win a trophy for this period to have been a success. It already is and will continue to be, and that is without a domestic cup. Absolutely.

But I do kind of agree with the notion that right now, we would be seen as less expected to win the one off games when it comes to it. Just because we haven’t done it yet. We do kind of need to prove ourselves there. I have reached the point where heading into big games in the league, I think we can win. I look at our squad and think we should be really high in the league, and I anticipate us over taking other teams. That wasn’t the case pre-Poch. We always fell just short but we’ve overcome that.

We haven’t yet done that in one off games. I’m still not entirely convinced we will beat United, even though I think we have a better team, a better manager, a better spirit, there’s just something that, until we prove it otherwise, I think we may lack. Is that a winning mentality? I don’t know, maybe it is. We’ve overcome so many previous mental hurdles or whatever anyone wants to call them, but until we do this one, I can’t claim to be confident that we’ve done away with it.

I love how I view us in the League. I’d just also love to think of Spurs as a ruthless machine in the big matches, the way Chelsea and United are seen. I’d much prefer to be us, every day of the week. But if we can add that ruthlessness, we’ve really come far.
 
I would argue we have done it, just look at the aformentioned run of games just last month.

BIG games, season defining games, and we came out of them with top performances and better results than anyone dare hope for.

Unless you only define as specifically cup games, in which case only the team that wins the cup can claim to have passed that particular test - literally all others fail at some point.
 
With respect, thats a nonsense question. What happens when I say "I think 400% of the imaginary focus group would say say yes"!? You see where that goes....

I think you do a huge dis service to the club by saying "just punching above your weight", and THAT is the core of the differences here.

"Just". Like its easy. Sorry, but no. What we are doing right now is incredible, and for me, far to many fans just take it for granted.

Winning/not winning the FA cup doesnt change my view that we are doing brilliantly right now. And this team displays more winning mentality than any other Ive seen in my time as a fan. Including those that actually won the league and fa cups.
Ok let me ask you directly - How many people who arent Spurs fans would say Spurs currently have a 'winning mentality'?

Thats the point Im making though Nayim, for true winners its about winning - punching above your weight isnt consolation if you dont win.

I respect your POV, and Im not even saying you're wrong - just that our views of the definition are different....
 
Again, I agree with you almost completely there. What we are doing is incredible, spectacular, and I have no time for the people that say we need to win a trophy for this period to have been a success. It already is and will continue to be, and that is without a domestic cup. Absolutely.

But I do kind of agree with the notion that right now, we would be seen as less expected to win the one off games when it comes to it. Just because we haven’t done it yet. We do kind of need to prove ourselves there. I have reached the point where heading into big games in the league, I think we can win. I look at our squad and think we should be really high in the league, and I anticipate us over taking other teams. That wasn’t the case pre-Poch. We always fell just short but we’ve overcome that.

We haven’t yet done that in one off games. I’m still not entirely convinced we will beat United, even though I think we have a better team, a better manager, a better spirit, there’s just something that, until we prove it otherwise, I think we may lack. Is that a winning mentality? I don’t know, maybe it is. We’ve overcome so many previous mental hurdles or whatever anyone wants to call them, but until we do this one, I can’t claim to be confident that we’ve done away with it.

I love how I view us in the League. I’d just also love to think of Spurs as a ruthless machine in the big matches, the way Chelsea and United are seen. I’d much prefer to be us, every day of the week. But if we can add that ruthlessness, we’ve really come far.

That's an outside perception though and im not sure it holds much sway on the debate here as it's about the mentality the team has (or doesn't have) not how people outside view us.

I just think it's a shame that after all this side has shown these past few years our own supporters are already priming themselves to lay the blame on mentality rather than to see how the upcoming games unfold.
 
@thsteff did you delete your post that started " hahaha" . I can't find it. But in your ridiculous response that Shankly's Liverpool and Revie's Leesds were not serial winners:

Bill Shankly - in fifteen years at Liverpool, he got them promoted to Division One, won the League Championship three times, the FA Cup once and the UEFA cup once.

Don Revie: under him, Leeds won the English League twice, the FA Cup once and the then Inter -Cities Fairs Cup twice. They were also finalists in the European Cup winners Cup in 1973 and European Cup in 1975.

I only hope our Poch can be as successful!!!

But don't let facts get in the way of your fatuous assertions (even though they are now deleted!)

Yes I deleted it because I wanted to try and disengage, but you have an odor I cannot appear to resist right now.

Try looking at the years each man was in charge versus their trophies.

They built winning mentalities at their clubs over YEARS! In fact, if you know Shankly’s story then you will see comparisons to what is happening here. As for Leeds, Revie was not the manager in 74/75. Armfield was. After Clough’s fateful spell.

The phrase “serial winners”’suggests to me a team that wins trophies repeatedly. Neither side did that year after year. They were there, they were strong, they had “winning mentalities” but others also won.








Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
I don't want to drag this out but @Pirate55 and @thfcsteff could you both answer this question as simply as possible to help me out as I'm easily confused.

Would we in your view have a winning mentality if we lost to Barcelona 2-1 in the final of the Champions League?

Yes.
Getting there would be huge given our history and would be further progress from
this season.
I don’t wear sandals though!


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Ok let me ask you directly - How many people who arent Spurs fans would say Spurs currently have a 'winning mentality'?

Thats the point Im making though Nayim, for true winners its about winning - punching above your weight isnt consolation if you dont win.

I respect your POV, and Im not even saying you're wrong - just that our views of the definition are different....

Its the same flawed question, it leads no where "How many people, for whom we have no idea who they are/what they do - but we'll try and imagine what they might think...."

And, frankly, I dont give a fudge what other fans think.. As with any club, those who arent supporters will never be as clued up or informed. Why would they be? Quite literally give zero bricks what any Arsenal/Utd/Whatever fan thinks of Spurs, their opinion is never going to have any weight.

ANd - again - NOBODY is saying we shouldnt be trying to win. And thats the point for me - striving to win, believing you can, going and going until youve given everything - these are the marks of a winning mentality whether or not other factors align to result in actual trophies, and these are the traits I see in this team all the time.

As Ive said, if we actually win the FA cup this season I dont think much actually changes. Seriously - what do you think changes?

The most I see is a confirmation/validation of what is already present - IE "See, our method works"
 
That's an outside perception though and im not sure it holds much sway on the debate here as it's about the mentality the team has (or doesn't have) not how people outside view us.

I just think it's a shame that after all this side has shown these past few years our own supporters are already priming themselves to lay the blame on mentality rather than to see how the upcoming games unfold.

It is, but this debate is around what we think of winning mentality. No one can really define it, and because of that no one can be absolutely sure the team does or does not have something that can't really be defined.

And maybe it is my own perception, and maybe it is somewhat irrelevant to this debate. I think we have done amazing things. I think as Poch talks about the mentality to be consistent across a season, to pick ourselves up from European disappointment and win 4-1 away, or to have one of the biggest nights in our history and then get the job done against Palace the following Saturday...these are all the things we now have that show we are acting like a top club. And beyond that, you can see it in the players' eyes, in the way they talk, in the way they carry themselves. Their confidence in what they are doing, their belief in what they feel they deserve, it is absolute. That is a big thing. And at some point, that will lead to trophies.

All I'm saying is, we have a big opportunity with the FA Cup. I really hope we prove we're the team to be feared, that no one wants to come up against. Rather than being unlucky, or falling short. I'd never say we 'need' to win a trophy at the start of every season, because there are other big clubs, with more money, that are also competing, so to say we need one just isn't fair on us. But, we have an opportunity because Liverpool, City and Arsenal are out. And we are better, more together, and more well equipped to face United and Chelsea. United are in the news for all the wrong reasons. Chelsea are having a pretty terrible slide down the League. If we ultimately can't beat these teams when we have a near fully fit squad, total belief in our way of working, and great form and conditioning at this point in the season, what will people hold it up as? I would have to say mentality may play a part. Not because we don't have a strong one throughout the season, but I think it is a fair point to say that getting that first one over the line is a big step. I remember there being a lot of talk of Andy Murray winning the US Open in 2012 being a good kick for him to ultimately win WImbledon the following year. And maybe that is complete nonsense, but I think a lot of people would say there is something in getting that first one over the line.

So I'm not saying we need to win a trophy, and I'm not saying we don't have a winning mentality, or that we aren't doing amazing things as a club. But in the context of the next 2 months, we have a massive opportunity to do something, and a lot of thing appear to be in our favor. Let's once and for all go out there and fudging win. No hard luck. No silly mistakes. No bad refs. Let's just fudging do it. There's no reason why we can't. And if we do, then I think we will have taken another massive step, alongside all the other massive steps we have taken over the last few years.
 
Ok let me ask you directly - How many people who arent Spurs fans would say Spurs currently have a 'winning mentality'?

Thats the point Im making though Nayim, for true winners its about winning - punching above your weight isnt consolation if you dont win.

I respect your POV, and Im not even saying you're wrong - just that our views of the definition are different....

A fair way to state your POV for sure, even though we do disagree. I would say that your POV raises how we define "true winners" in life. I define "true winners" by a different standard to many. The quality of the journey -what you learn, how you apply it- is a huge part of "winning" for me. Personally (and I am aware the following is antithetical to many), I believe that 30 years spent working 12 hour days under immense stress whilst your life rolls through the grinder simply to achieve an SL 500, a couple of million and the promise of retirement at 61 is simply not "winning" enough. You can achieve success and balance in all areas. I believe that Poch has planted a "winning mentality" in us on his terms. The Juve games showed that. Clearly we can compete on the pitch in terms of skill, in terms of fight and spirit. Where we are still developing a final phase is in the "clown shoe" stakes, being able to be clamy and do clamy things to push over the line. I am split on that. I know we need to do it, and I believe the players do now too, but I don't love the idea. I have to also say that when we do win a game or two like that, there will be a chorus of our own support who will go bananas!
Anyway, appreciate the discursive element to your post, and one thing we can agree on is COYS!
 
While we are improving on this aspect year on year, and are helping to cultivate a WM, we won't have actually achieved a "winning mentality" unless and until we actually win something and put the serial chokers jibe fully to bed. We are still two stages away from this at the moment. First is to win some clutch games (Chelsea away and Man U) would be a great start in this respect.

I’ve picked up the above from a few pages back. I admit to not having the strength (strong enough mentality?) to persevere through every single post (about 5 pages worth) since I last checked in.
The bold bit above interests me. Why is there “something” we have to win that proves the winning mentality? Is it something we suddenly acquire, and then we ‘have it’ going forward?
As per your definition (if I understand the above correctly) once we win say the FA Cup, that proves we have achieved a winning mentality? (And winning selective yet-to-be-played games means we are on the right path, but having already produced great results -including wins- in other ‘clutch’ games does not count as much as the two you mention?) So winning the FA Cup means it’s a done thing? Discussion over? We win the “winning mentality” award?

To me it’s an ongoing thing. As I said before, it’s all about the attitude with which we approach and play each game. The attitude and belief going into each game of each competition that we are good enough to win it. Not rolling over, not being cowed, fighting our corner, being brave, <insert other battling cliche>.
Even if we beat Cheatski away and Man Utd in the SF, and win the FA Cup, that in itself only demonstrates an ability to win in the here and now. The ‘winning mentality’ that I think a lot of us are talking about is an enduring state of mind, something that will be played out and judged over the long term, not in one competition. Of course winning that one competition would be an element in the construct of the winning mentality, but it is not in itself a defining metric of it.
 
To me it’s an ongoing thing. As I said before, it’s all about the attitude with which we approach and play each game. The attitude and belief going into each game of each competition that we are good enough to win it. Not rolling over, not being cowed, fighting our corner, being brave, <insert other battling cliche>.
Even if we beat Cheatski away and Man Utd in the SF, and win the FA Cup, that in itself only demonstrates an ability to win in the here and now. The ‘winning mentality’ that I think a lot of us are talking about is an enduring state of mind, something that will be played out and judged over the long term, not in one competition. Of course winning that one competition would be an element in the construct of the winning mentality, but it is not in itself a defining metric of it.

I agree. For a lot of our history we have been a cup side. Some good players, more than a match for anyone on our day but lacking the strength and consistency to do it in the league. You wouldn't say that about us now and that is because this team has far better mentality (yes winning) than a lot of our sides in the past that have won silverware.
 
I also agree with those saying that our February and March league and CL fixtures are a far better measure of our winning mentality than our FA Cup fixtures. If we win the FA Cup, we will have done that having played a maximum of two decent teams. We had more challenging games than that in one week during that run in the league and CL.
 
I’ve picked up the above from a few pages back. I admit to not having the strength (strong enough mentality?) to persevere through every single post (about 5 pages worth) since I last checked in.
The bold bit above interests me. Why is there “something” we have to win that proves the winning mentality? Is it something we suddenly acquire, and then we ‘have it’ going forward?
As per your definition (if I understand the above correctly) once we win say the FA Cup, that proves we have achieved a winning mentality? (And winning selective yet-to-be-played games means we are on the right path, but having already produced great results -including wins- in other ‘clutch’ games does not count as much as the two you mention?) So winning the FA Cup means it’s a done thing? Discussion over? We win the “winning mentality” award?

To me it’s an ongoing thing. As I said before, it’s all about the attitude with which we approach and play each game. The attitude and belief going into each game of each competition that we are good enough to win it. Not rolling over, not being cowed, fighting our corner, being brave, <insert other battling cliche>.
Even if we beat Cheatski away and Man Utd in the SF, and win the FA Cup, that in itself only demonstrates an ability to win in the here and now. The ‘winning mentality’ that I think a lot of us are talking about is an enduring state of mind, something that will be played out and judged over the long term, not in one competition. Of course winning that one competition would be an element in the construct of the winning mentality, but it is not in itself a defining metric of it.

What you are describing to me is a "strong mentality'" rather than a winning one.

Let's look at the converse of what you suggest. Say we don't win against Chelsea or United. Say we don't win anything next season or even the season after. What then? Will we still have a winning mentality? Will the team that is probably either the best (or at least second best) in the country, still believe in the project and still stay together ?

While a one off game between evenly matched teams can of course go either way and there is no foregone conclusion in football matches. Consequently, while I agree that not winning the FA cup this season is not absolutely essential nor conclusive in determining that we have not got a winning mentality. However, we have, by common consent, a great team, then why aren't we actually winning trophies? In any one year this could be explained by any number of reasons - bad luck, injuries, poor refereeing etc, but if it continues season after season and we continue to fall short, what would you put it down to ?
 
Say we don't win against Chelsea or United. Say we don't win anything next season or even the season after. What then? Will we still have a winning mentality? Will the team that is probably either the best (or at least second best) in the country, still believe in the project and still stay together
?

So now you are projecting next season or the season after next?

I thought this discussion was about this season?

Wriggle
Wriggle
Wriggle
[emoji6][emoji106]




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Its the same flawed question, it leads no where "How many people, for whom we have no idea who they are/what they do - but we'll try and imagine what they might think...."

And, frankly, I dont give a fudge what other fans think.. As with any club, those who arent supporters will never be as clued up or informed. Why would they be? Quite literally give zero bricks what any Arsenal/Utd/Whatever fan thinks of Spurs, their opinion is never going to have any weight.

ANd - again - NOBODY is saying we shouldnt be trying to win. And thats the point for me - striving to win, believing you can, going and going until youve given everything - these are the marks of a winning mentality whether or not other factors align to result in actual trophies, and these are the traits I see in this team all the time.

As Ive said, if we actually win the FA cup this season I dont think much actually changes. Seriously - what do you think changes?

The most I see is a confirmation/validation of what is already present - IE "See, our method works"
I didn’t say winning one Fa Cup changes anything,but it’s a start. Can you tell me when anyone ever analysed a period of a team or individual sportsman who didn’t win anything and said ‘They had that winning mentality’? I bet you can’t. It’s often mentioned when successful teams have a sustained period of success. It’s not mentioned when a team is punching above their weight. Unless it’s on a Spurs forum of course....
 
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