Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[billyiddo]

@Pirate55 Lets try a different approach then seeings as ill just be repeating points I've already made in response to points you have already made.

Can we have some examples of sides domestically who have the type of winning mentality that you think we are lacking?

 

[Pirate55]

I don’t really agree with your analysis of the importance of those games, but anyway, why would you say those 3 are more important than the the 4 consecutive, more recent, results we got v utd, Pool, arse and Juve away (just the away game, I know we threw the home game in 5 minutes).

I am not saying they are MORE important but that where other teams are really up for games, we have come up short in mental fortitude. To take the games you identify as apparent proof of our "winning mentality', if I were a particularly jaundiced Pool or Gooner, I perhaps would counter by saying "we got lucky in all those games" . To take the most unfavourable slant on them, they (not me you understand ) could say:

" United. We got a fortunate rebound right from the kick off and undid United's game plan within 10 seconds. Phil Jones' own goal was further evidence of our luck in this game.

Pool. In the last ten minutes we were fortunate in a 1in a100 'worldie' from the most unlikely source of Wanyama.It is doubtful whether he will ever score a goal like this again. Furthermore, despite this worldie and two highly dubious penalty awards all in the last ten minutes, we still couldn't actually conjure a win at Anfield.

Arsenal. While Spurs were the better side and deserved to win, they failed to put the result to bed. Indeed, in the last few minutes Arsenal spurned two glorious chances and we got lucky they didn't take them.

Juve away. We were 2-0 down in ten minutes. Before half time, Juve had also missed a penalty and a virtually open goal. Spurs were lucky that we hadn't conceded four goals before halftime and the tie be effectively over"

To re-iterate, these are not my views but a case that could be argued by jealous fans of other clubs. At the other end of the viewpoint spectrum are those that believe we currently have an undisputed "winning mentality" and this is what secured those results - even though two of those games we did not win! The truth lies somewhere between those two extreme positions. We are progressing towards a winning mentality, but we aren't there yet. The next stage on the journey will be to win clutch games like Chelsea away and Man U in the semifinal. Games where the result is crucial. The final stage of this journey, will be to actually win something.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I am not saying they are MORE important but that where other teams are really up for games, we have come up short in mental fortitude. To take the games you identify as apparent proof of our "winning mentality', if I were a particularly jaundiced Pool or Gooner, I perhaps would counter by saying "we got lucky in all those games" . To take the most unfavourable slant on them, they (not me you understand ) could say:

" United. We got a fortunate rebound right from the kick off and undid United's game plan within 10 seconds. Phil Jones' own goal was further evidence of our luck in this game.

Pool. In the last ten minutes we were fortunate in a 1in a100 'worldie' from the most unlikely source of Wanyama.It is doubtful whether he will ever score a goal like this again. Furthermore, despite this worldie and two highly dubious penalty awards all in the last ten minutes, we still couldn't actually conjure a win at Anfield.

Arsenal. While Spurs were the better side and deserved to win, they failed to put the result to bed. Indeed, in the last few minutes Arsenal spurned two glorious chances and we got lucky they didn't take them.

Juve away. We were 2-0 down in ten minutes. Before half time, Juve had also missed a penalty and a virtually open goal. Spurs were lucky that we hadn't conceded four goals before halftime and the tie be effectively over"

To re-iterate, these are not my views but a case that could be argued by jealous fans of other clubs. At the other end of the viewpoint spectrum are those that believe we currently have an undisputed "winning mentality" and this is what secured those results - even though two of those games we did not win! The truth lies somewhere between those two extreme positions. We are progressing towards a winning mentality, but we aren't there yet. The next stage on the journey will be to win clutch games like Chelsea away and Man U in the semifinal. Games where the result is crucial. The final stage of this journey, will be to actually win something.

Just read your first paragraph and to stop you there, I’m not trying to prove we have a winning mentality at all, i’m not sure whether we have or not. What I was doing was disproving your (IMO) ridiculous notion that those random games somehow proved we didn’t have one, but a run of more recent difficult games didn’t prove we did?!

 

[Pirate55]

@Pirate55 Lets try a different approach then seeings as ill just be repeating points I've already made in response to points you have already made.

Can we have some examples of sides domestically who have the type of winning mentality that you think we are lacking?

I have already done so. But to repeat, Clough's Forest, Shankley's Pool, Revies' Leeds, and in the modern era SAF's United and Wenger's Arsenal. A "winning mentality" is all about winning and these teams showed a steely resolve, never say die attitude, which resulted in them being serial winners. Success often breeds success because it gives winners an extra belief in themselves to overcome adversity in any circumstances.

I don't see how you can argue that we currently have this sort of winning mentality. Or are you now also changing your position and now saying that " Poch is helping to cultivate a winning mentality, but we aren't there yet" .?

 

[thfcsteff]

Hello....do I detect a changing of your position? I thought you and Billy were arguing that we currently have a "winning mentality"?

No one as far as I can tell and certainly not me, would argue that Poch is not successfully "cultivating the final steps necessary for a winning mentality" but the simple fact remains that we aren't there yet. Context my friend, context!

Anyhow, glad you are coming round to my way of thinking

No chance of that. You have now chosen to claim potential misunderstanding of mine and Billy’s discussion point. You still don’t understand context (I wish you did - we’d have saved ourselves this “discussion”) and let me remind you of your consistent viewpoint up until, err, now.

<<I didn't ignore it at all. My point is that a winning mentality is about winning not "gaining experience" . If you can't (or won't) see that, then I agree with you that this discussion is pointless.>>

That is you.
I disagree with that viewpoint (other than the “pointless discussion” bit which I agree with - I wouldn’t be here save your pseudo-trolling)..:


I believe we have cultivated a “winning mentality” which continues to get stronger. I believe there are differences on this forum as to when the final full maturation of this developed “winning mentality” will take place.
I do not believe the forthcoming SF will alter my perception of where we are on the “winning mentality” journey, and believe we have learned more about said “WM”
from losing against Juve than anyone can truly measure.

Rest assured, we don’t agree, unless you have shifted your viewpoint goalposts again...




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Pirate55]

No chance of that. You have now chosen to claim potential misunderstanding of mine and Billy’s discussion point. You still don’t understand context (I wish you did - we’d have saved ourselves this “discussion”) and let me remind you of your consistent viewpoint up until, err, now.

<<I didn't ignore it at all. My point is that a winning mentality is about winning not "gaining experience" . If you can't (or won't) see that, then I agree with you that this discussion is pointless.>>

That is you.
I disagree with that viewpoint (other than the “pointless discussion” bit which I agree with - I wouldn’t be here save your pseudo-trolling)..:


I believe we have cultivated a “winning mentality” which continues to get stronger. I believe there are differences on this forum as to when the final full maturation of this developed “winning mentality” will take place.
I do not believe the forthcoming SF will alter my perception of where we are on the “winning mentality” journey, and believe we have learned more about said “WM”
from losing against Juve than anyone can truly measure.

Rest assured, we don’t agree, unless you have shifted your viewpoint goalposts again...




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I am truly baffled that you don't think a "winning mentality" is about winning.

 

[billyiddo]

I have already done so. But to repeat, Clough's Forest, Shankley's Pool, Revies' Leeds, and in the modern era SAF's United and Wenger's Arsenal. A "winning mentality" is all about winning and these teams showed a steely resolve, never say die attitude, which resulted in them being serial winners. Success often breeds success because it gives winners an extra belief in themselves to overcome adversity in any circumstances.

I don't see how you can argue that we currently have this sort of winning mentality. Or are you now also changing your position and now saying that " Poch is helping to cultivate a winning mentality, but we aren't there yet" .?

Maybe it's just me here but your logic seems all over the place on this subject.

With regards to your view of what constitutes a winning mentality you can only point to the most successful sides in the history of english football as examples of those who had it - the last of which being Wengers Arsenal/Fergies United which is getting on for nearly a decade old now - all those teams who have won leagues and cups domestically and in europe who weren't part of that select group presumably didn't have the mentality that we require to beat Chelsea at Stamford Bridge or Leicester away in the league? What sort of nonsense is that?

In the time that has lapsed since the last of your examples were playing a multitude of trophies have been won by a small handful of clubs and then going back further there are many league/cup winning sides who aren't part of the teams you have listed - who i guess won their leagues and cups sans winning mentality? begs the question why you think mentality is what is holding us back from winning a trophy when by your own reckoning leagues and cups have been won every year throughought history by sides without the mentality you are now describing.

 

[nayenezgani]

 

[Pirate55]

@thsteff did you delete your post that started " hahaha" . I can't find it. But in your ridiculous response that Shankly's Liverpool and Revie's Leesds were not serial winners:

Bill Shankly - in fifteen years at Liverpool, he got them promoted to Division One, won the League Championship three times, the FA Cup once and the UEFA cup once.

Don Revie: under him, Leeds won the English League twice, the FA Cup once and the then Inter -Cities Fairs Cup twice. They were also finalists in the European Cup winners Cup in 1973 and European Cup in 1975.

I only hope our Poch can be as successful!!!

But don't let facts get in the way of your fatuous assertions (even though they are now deleted!)

 

[Jordinho]

I am truly baffled that you don't think a "winning mentality" is about winning.

Teams that win often have a winning mentality, but it's not something that's purely derived from winning. It's about the people in that side and their personalities. About understanding what it takes to win and putting in the necessary work every day in training and not accepting being second best.

 

[Pirate55]

Maybe it's just me here but your logic seems all over the place on this subject.

With regards to your view of what constitutes a winning mentality you can only point to the most successful sides in the history of english football as examples of those who had it - the last of which being Wengers Arsenal/Fergies United which is getting on for nearly a decade old now - all those teams who have won leagues and cups domestically and in europe who weren't part of that select group presumably didn't have the mentality that we require to beat Chelsea at Stamford Bridge or Leicester away in the league? What sort of nonsense is that?

In the time that has lapsed since the last of your examples were playing a multitude of trophies have been won by a small handful of clubs and then going back further there are many league/cup winning sides who aren't part of the teams you have listed - who i guess won their leagues and cups sans winning mentality? begs the question why you think mentality is what is holding us back from winning a trophy when by your own reckoning leagues and cups have been won every year throughought history by sides without the mentality you are now describing.

I am afraid it is you that are displaying the faulty and inconsistent logic here. Where did I say that these sides were the ONLY teams that had a "winning mentality" ? You asked me to give examples, which I did. Various teams at various times have displayed a "winning mentality" to actually win things.

Let me ask you a simple question, do we currently have a winning mentality? Yes or no ?

 

[billyiddo]

I am afraid it is you that are displaying the faulty and inconsistent logic here. Where did I say that these sides were the ONLY teams that had a "winning mentality" ? You asked me to give examples, which I did. Various teams at various times have displayed a "winning mentality" to actually win things.

Let me ask you a simple question, do we currently have a winning mentality? Yes or no ?

I asked you to name current sides that have the winning mentality that we lack and then you listed a bunch of sides from the past, the most recent being a decade old.

Perhaps you should try reading the posts you're responding to in future

 

[NoLimits01]

I don't want to drag this out but @Pirate55 and @thfcsteff could you both answer this question as simply as possible to help me out as I'm easily confused.

Would we in your view have a winning mentality if we lost to Barcelona 2-1 in the final of the Champions League?

 

[Pirate55]

I asked you to name current sides that have the winning mentality that we lack and then you listed a bunch of sides from the past, the most recent being a decade old.

Perhaps you should try reading the posts you're responding to in future

Please try reading your own posts before accusing others of not doing so. Where did you say "currently" .

Please would you now answer my question? Do we currently have a winning mentality? Yes or no?

 

[Pirate55]

I don't want to drag this out but @Pirate55 and @thfcsteff could you both answer this question as simply as possible to help me out as I'm easily confused.

Would we in your view have a winning mentality if we lost to Barcelona 2-1 in the final of the Champions League?

The answer to this is undoubtedly yes. We will have proved that we have a strong winning mentality by actually having been successful in qualifying for the Champions League ( maybe also having won the title along the way!) and we would have won some key clutch games in the European Cup to have got to the final. So, in the scenario you postulate, we would have demonstrated a strong winning mentality. A winning mentality does not mean winning every game. However, the final step in the journey to demonstrate we have unquestionably ACHIEVED a winning mentality would be to actually win a trophy.

 

[Lemonade Money]

WALOB

 

[scaramanga]

I have already done so. But to repeat, Clough's Forest, Shankley's Pool, Revies' Leeds, and in the modern era SAF's United and Wenger's Arsenal. A "winning mentality" is all about winning and these teams showed a steely resolve, never say die attitude, which resulted in them being serial winners. Success often breeds success because it gives winners an extra belief in themselves to overcome adversity in any circumstances.

I don't see how you can argue that we currently have this sort of winning mentality. Or are you now also changing your position and now saying that " Poch is helping to cultivate a winning mentality, but we aren't there yet" .?

How did any of those teams begin to win things without a winning mentality?

If they did have one, how did they get it without winning things?

 

[Pirate55]

How did any of those teams begin to win things without a winning mentality?

If they did have one, how did they get it without winning things?

Same question to you, do we currently have a winning mentality? Yes or no ?

 

[Pirate55]

No chance of that. You have now chosen to claim potential misunderstanding of mine and Billy’s discussion point. You still don’t understand context (I wish you did - we’d have saved ourselves this “discussion”) and let me remind you of your consistent viewpoint up until, err, now.

<<I didn't ignore it at all. My point is that a winning mentality is about winning not "gaining experience" . If you can't (or won't) see that, then I agree with you that this discussion is pointless.>>

That is you.
I disagree with that viewpoint (other than the “pointless discussion” bit which I agree with - I wouldn’t be here save your pseudo-trolling)..:


I believe we have cultivated a “winning mentality” which continues to get stronger. I believe there are differences on this forum as to when the final full maturation of this developed “winning mentality” will take place.
I do not believe the forthcoming SF will alter my perception of where we are on the “winning mentality” journey, and believe we have learned more about said “WM”
from losing against Juve than anyone can truly measure.

Rest assured, we don’t agree, unless you have shifted your viewpoint goalposts again...




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Are we currently cultivating a winning mentality but are not there yet, or do we currently have a winning mentality? Which is it?

 

[StephenH]

Butting in.

In this instance I would personally think "cultivating" never stops.
A team have won lots, thus 'have a winning mentality" but you keep "cultivating" to improve and maintain it.