Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Gazzasrightboot]

Probably not worth going there ....

In actuality what I would like to see from Poch is something that distinguishes himself from the last 5+ managers

Hard truth is BMJ, Redknapp, AVB, TS and Poch all finished between 6th-4th, huge argument could be made that none of them overachieved, that 6th-4th is functionally par for course based on our squad/spend. All relied on a star player for their best season (Carrick, Berbs, Modric, Bale, Ade, Kane) and all could have probably done just a little better.

What is Poch going to do different?

Maybe he just can't for the time being. I think we have to recognise that fact. I don't think this point is lost on Levy either. He will sack managers when he feels that there is going to be a downward trajectory. Missing out on CL is not the reason he has sacked managers imho.

 

[Raziel]

Maybe he just can't for the time being. I think we have to recognise that fact. I don't think this point is lost on Levy either. He will sack managers when he feels that there is going to be a downward trajectory. Missing out on CL is not the reason he has sacked managers imho.

In some ways I agree, but in others I don't. We are massively changing this squad to specifically be a "poch team" if all that buys us is status quo, not sure I understand why him.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

In some ways I agree, but in others I don't. We are massively changing this squad to specifically be a "poch team" if all that buys us is status quo, not sure I understand why him.

Well because AVB was in a tailspin so had to go. He didn't want to give it to Tim, and so Poch was the best of the rest. A manager cannot be a miracle worker, but perhaps Poch's way is the best way to get a squad of players playing above the sum of their parts so that you may crack it. In any case, Poch's team is probably easier on the eye than AVBs!

As soon as the fan base turns on Poch, and the atmosphere in the stadium turns poisonous, we'll probably see Levy act and we will get another manager in his place.

 

[milo]

Probably not worth going there ....

In actuality what I would like to see from Poch is something that distinguishes himself from the last 5+ managers

Hard truth is BMJ, Redknapp, AVB, TS and Poch all finished between 6th-4th, huge argument could be made that none of them overachieved, that 6th-4th is functionally par for course based on our squad/spend. All relied on a star player for their best season (Carrick, Berbs, Modric, Bale, Ade, Kane) and all could have probably done just a little better.

What is Poch going to do different?

This was specifically in response to the I flexibility charge. I do not see a huge amount of flexibility from the four managers who finished above him last season but happy to be challenged on that.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

This was specifically in response to the I flexibility charge. I do not see a huge amount of flexibility from the four managers who finished above him last season but happy to be challenged on that.

I agree with you. Every decent manager has an idea of how they would like the game to be played. The Liverpool fans have complained massively that Rodgers doesn't seem to have that.

 

[Raziel]

This was specifically in response to the I flexibility charge. I do not see a huge amount of flexibility from the four managers who finished above him last season but happy to be challenged on that.

There is flexibility in game (i.e. is there a plan B?) and flexibility in squad (can you use who you have, or do you need specific players?).

I don't think Poch is particularly good in either form of flexibility nor was AVB. In our recent history I would say HR or TS would be much more likely to leverage a player we have/could get, vs. need a specific player to make the system work (and no .. don't go there, not discussing who is a better manager)

Top 6 teams over last two years, Rodgers has probably changed setup most based on available personnel, and that leads to the accusation of does he actually know his desired setup ...

 

[parklane1]

Well because AVB was in a tailspin so had to go. He didn't want to give it to Tim, and so Poch was the best of the rest. A manager cannot be a miracle worker, but perhaps Poch's way is the best way to get a squad of players playing above the sum of their parts so that you may crack it. In any case, Poch's team is probably easier on the eye than AVBs!

As soon as the fan base turns on Poch, and the atmosphere in the stadium turns poisonous, we'll probably see Levy act and we will get another manager in his place.

And we jump back on the round about again, new manager, new coaches and backroom staff, players in, players out, new training formations etc. We never learn.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

And we jump back on the round about again, new manager, new coaches and backroom staff, players in, players out, new training formations etc. We never learn.

I do agree with you, but in all honesty the last 4 sackings (TS, AVB, Redknapp and Ramos) had to be done imo. I really wanted it to work for Redknapp, but he was already splitting opinion massively amongst spurs fans. AVB and TS, well they didn't even begin to unite the fan base. Redknapp was the closest that we came to really challenging imo, and I really wish that we did.

WHL's atmosphere was the best in that run up to our first top 4 finish. It was honestly a pleasure being at the Lane in those times, because even when things were going against us, the grumpy lot were easily drowned out by the singing and cheering. Our game against Inter Milan at home was the best competitive atmosphere I have ever witnessed in person. Ledley's testimonial was my favourite but that was more because of sentiment and emotion than anything else. I was lucky enough to be able to share a drink with him after that game, and it is obvious that man deeply loves this club as much as any of us.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Top 6 teams over last two years, Rodgers has probably changed setup most based on available personnel, and that leads to the accusation of does he actually know his desired setup ...

Fans think they know everything about everything these days. A manager sticks to the same team/formation because he picks the 11 best in training but loses and 'He's not flexible enough' 'Doesn't have a plan B'. He changes the team and loses and 'He doesn't know his best team'.

All it boils down to is win = good, lose = bad. For some reason people have to look for some kind of hollier than thou 'I could be a football manager, look at how much I know about football' reason behind every loss.

Not saying that there isn't some scope for discussion about plan B's or inflexibilty of managers in terms of tactics, but that is never the only reason why games are lost, and it's such a wolly topic that an argument can never really come to a conclusion.

 

[parklane1]

Redknapp had some of the best players we have had here for a long time and still failed to win us anything and in the end sacked himself with his actions, Ramos actually won us a trophy, Sherwood was nothing more then a temporary appointment, and as for AVB he wanted out for his own reasons.

If we keep turning over managers every time a few fans start bitching because they can not see that we will never challenge for the top honours until we get some stability then we will never learn.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Redknapp had some of the best players we have had here for a long time and still failed to win us anything and in the end sacked himself with his actions, Ramos actually won us a trophy, Sherwood was nothing more then a temporary appointment, and as for AVB he wanted out for his own reasons.

If we keep turning over managers every time a few fans start bitching because they can not see that we will never challenge for the top honours until we get some stability then we will never learn.

Completely agree with that statement!

 

[parklane1]

Fans think they know everything about everything these days. A manager sticks to the same team/formation because he picks the 11 best in training but loses and 'He's not flexible enough' 'Doesn't have a plan B'. He changes the team and loses and 'He doesn't know his best team'.

All it boils down to is win = good, lose = bad. For some reason people have to look for some kind of hollier than thou 'I could be a football manager, look at how much I know about football' reason behind every loss.

Not saying that there isn't some scope for discussion about plan B's or inflexibilty of managers in terms of tactics, but that is never the only reason why games are lost, and it's such a wolly topic that an argument can never really come to a conclusion.

Said it before and I will say it again, some fans who are always playing games on their puters and winning tend to think that football in the real world is as easy as the games they play.

 

[DublinSpur]

Said it before and I will say it again, some fans who are always playing games on their puters and winning tend to think that football in the real world is as easy as the games they play.

I agree with a lot of what you say here parklane, but I think you're over-simplifying this (and have a pet bugbear regarding computer games).

I remember plenty of the same kind of discussions (in real life rather than online) long before computer games came on the scene. Lots of fans would leave the ground after a loss insisting they would have played a different formation and different players and we would definitely have won 5-0 if they were manager. I also know plenty of people today who make the same kind of claims and who have never played a computer game in their life.

And as someone who has occasionally played Football / Championship Manager I have never been tempted to assume that the skills and ideas from the game carries over into the real world. Of course there are people who think they can win the league just by tinkering with formations (either in their head or on a PC screen), but that's been going on since I started watching football back in the 70s. Blaming it on computer games seems to be ignoring that fact.

 

[parklane1]

I agree with a lot of what you say here parklane, but I think you're over-simplifying this (and have a pet bugbear regarding computer games).

I remember plenty of the same kind of discussions (in real life rather than online) long before computer games came on the scene. Lots of fans would leave the ground after a loss insisting they would have played a different formation and different players and we would definitely have won 5-0 if they were manager. I also know plenty of people today who make the same kind of claims and who have never played a computer game in their life.

And as someone who has occasionally played Football / Championship Manager I have never been tempted to assume that the skills and ideas from the game carries over into the real world. Of course there are people who think they can win the league just by tinkering with formations (either in their head or on a PC screen), but that's been going on since I started watching football back in the 70s. Blaming it on computer games seems to be ignoring that fact.

Not ignoring anything mate, you are right there are always fans who think they know better then someone who does the job full time and they are at all clubs. But the number of budding Fergies and Jose I meet in the pubs during my travels has gone through the roof and more often then not they are game players.

Disagreeing with players being picked ( and as you say that has been going on for decades) is one thing, trying to say that this formation will work and that formation will not has crept into the talk over recent times. And I did say not all game players think they can do a better job then guys who do it for a living.

 

[milo]

There is flexibility in game (i.e. is there a plan B?) and flexibility in squad (can you use who you have, or do you need specific players?).

I don't think Poch is particularly good in either form of flexibility nor was AVB. In our recent history I would say HR or TS would be much more likely to leverage a player we have/could get, vs. need a specific player to make the system work (and no .. don't go there, not discussing who is a better manager)

Top 6 teams over last two years, Rodgers has probably changed setup most based on available personnel, and that leads to the accusation of does he actually know his desired setup ...

If we are honest, HR and TS never did much more than chuck on another forward. There is nothing wrong with that, it can be very effective but it doesn't really demonstrate tactical flexibility.

I do not know the answer to this but I would be interested in seeing stats on our recent managers coming from behind (steady Finbar) to claim victory.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

If we are honest, HR and TS never did much more than chuck on another forward. There is nothing wrong with that, it can be very effective but it doesn't really demonstrate tactical flexibility.

I do not know the answer to this but I would be interested in seeing stats on our recent managers coming from behind (steady Finbar) to claim victory.

Ours is actually quite high under Poch!

 

[DublinSpur]

Not ignoring anything mate, you are right there are always fans who think they know better then someone who does the job full time and they are at all clubs. But the number of budding Fergies and Jose I meet in the pubs during my travels has gone through the roof and more often then not they are game players.

Disagreeing with players being picked ( and as you say that has been going on for decades) is one thing, trying to say that this formation will work and that formation will not has crept into the talk over recent times. And I did say not all game players think they can do a better job then guys who do it for a living.

Hardly worth getting into a knock-down, drag-out about it, but from my own memory as a Spurs fan I have never been involved in as many heated arguments about formation as I was in post-match pub conversations of 1993 / 1994 (and the people involved weren't computer gamers). We probably just have different experiences / memories when it comes to this stuff - so there's no right or wrong position.

I do think the emergence of the internet and forums like this have seen a massive increase in those kind of discussions. But that's just because the internet has provoked a massive increase in every kind of discussion.

 

[parklane1]

Hardly worth getting into a knock-down, drag-out about it, but from my own memory as a Spurs fan I have never been involved in as many heated arguments about formation as I was in post-match pub conversations of 1993 / 1994 (and the people involved weren't computer gamers). We probably just have different experiences / memories when it comes to this stuff - so there's no right or wrong position.

I do think the emergence of the internet and forums like this have seen a massive increase in those kind of discussions. But that's just because the internet has provoked a massive increase in every kind of discussion.

As you say we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Pirate55]

Saw the game mate

- We set up well initially, probably unlucky not to be 3 up at half time
- Hughes made changes, Poch failed to counter effectively and actually made it worse by bringing on one player out of form, and a second who consistently fails to deliver.
- 2 games in 2015 we have managed to keep a clean sheet at home .. simply not good enough ...

Number of areas you could show Poch fudgeing up today
- Despite Walker having a decent game, once he was a yellow, Stoke targeted him, we easily could have subbed him out, on top of that you put on Lamela in front of him who weakens the right side even more, and guess which side the goal came from?

He needs to sort it out very soon ...

Agree 100% Raz mate. Said exactly that whe watching it live. Walker should have been subbed for Trippier at half time. If Poch really wanted to be daring he could have played Walker in front of Trippier instead of the limp Lamela. That would have both given us double protection on our weak right hand side and Walkers pace going forward would have enabled us a much needed outlet that we didn't have after Kane was subbed.

Pochs in game management is a real weakness at the moment and needs to improve significantly imo.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agree 100% Raz mate. Said exactly that whe watching it live. Walker should have been subbed for Trippier at half time. If Poch really wanted to be daring he could have played Walker in front of Trippier instead of the limp Lamela. That would have both given us double protection on our weak right hand side and Walkers pace going forward would have enabled us a much needed outlet that we didn't have after Kane was subbed.

Pochs in game management is a real weakness at the moment and needs to improve significantly imo.

The last line is actually the big one... In game management

I actually don't think it's something manager managers are good at now because there all system managers but it's certainly a weakness for Poch. It would obviously help having more options on the bench but it's such a key area now to change games with subs