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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Robspur12 said:
There are only 5 data points! Remove 1 and that is ignoring 20% of the data. It is a ridiculously obvious way of biasing stats to make a point stronger.
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Everyone needs to calm down, a question was asked, i.e. "why remove the year", I answered, it is a standard practice "In statistics, an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations."

You make a point that then the scope of data is insufficient, people can chose to agree or not. I could argue that it's not 5 data points, but 5 groups with 38 data points each (individual games), plus the comparison data of previous years. The argument could be made that including (the point of outlier removal) the 20% biases the data in exactly the opposite way

What that data shows for me is Poch did have a truly exceptional year, but the remainder were not the miracle/overperformance it is sometimes made out to be, but again opinions
 
Raziel said:
Everyone needs to calm down, a question was asked, i.e. "why remove the year", I answered, it is a standard practice "In statistics, an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations."

You make a point that then the scope of data is insufficient, people can chose to agree or not. I could argue that it's not 5 data points, but 5 groups with 38 data points each (individual games), plus the comparison data of previous years. The argument could be made that including (the point of outlier removal) the 20% biases the data in exactly the opposite way

What that data shows for me is Poch did have a truly exceptional year, but the remainder were not the miracle/overperformance it is sometimes made out to be, but again opinions
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I always felt disappointed with the points return for each season other than the 86 point year. My reasoning being that when you only hit around 70 points then you haven't really had a consistently excellent season. 70 points in the minimum really needed for top 4 but it doesn't mean you've been involved I the title race at all.

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Raziel said:
Because it could be considered an outlier (an abnormality), not actually unusual when looking at data.

A few people have said it's league position, I'm not sure I agree, there has been a lot of odd years for some of our competitors and we were simply more consistent.

Before everyone jumps on me, I'm not making any specific case re the data just answering your question.

2 points does make me think however, it should most people.
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There are more logical reasons for excluding his first season in charge as opposed to his best, so any averages should be taken from 2nd season onward - if you're looking to paint an accurate picture.

Personally id say averaging a managers time in this way doesn't really show anything of note anyway - especially with a full season at Wembley to take in to consideration and then the following one where everything was up in the air regarding the move which will certainly have had a negative impact on points gained. Plenty of other variables im sure.
 
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Bedfordspurs said:
What with a player we bought cheaply wanting to leave but no one who he wants to go to actually wanting to buy him?

We can’t make a club buy someone. Similarly we can’t make a a player sign a contract. It’s clear that NO ONE wants to buy eriksen so anyone interested is waiting for him to be on a free transfer. It’s gonna happen more and more now with plenty of players and has been happening overseas more than here
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I am not sure what has been lost in translation here.

I do not blame the club for the Eriksen situation as I know the deal.

He is a unique situation in so much as he believed he could play for Barca and basically waited a season for them before adjusting his sights to Real Madrid.

As we go forward, however, the basic wage plus generous bonus scheme is not going to get the biggest fish/keep them happy, given the size of club we have physically become again.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
At the risk of invoking groundhog day, that really is a management thing.

Lets assume the four contract rebels are a distraction for the group. The choice becomes:

1) Keep playing them, letting them effect the others, try to get them into form or to perform.
2) Bin them off, away from the group, focus on the players who have commitment, build a new core to grow with.

Regardless of the ill intent of these players, regardless of if you blame the board for that state, or for them being there - this is very much within the managers wheelhouse to deal with.

There isnt an excuse for those players to be distracting the group.
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I would agree technically, however I think with such a tight knit squad, the risk of binning them off and then needing them because injuries hit is very very real. The toughest thing to manage.
 
thfcsteff said:
I would agree technically, however I think with such a tight knit squad, the risk of binning them off and then needing them because injuries hit is very very real. The toughest thing to manage.
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If its obvious as to why someone has been dropped, I think there is a degree of acceptance/patience if there is a need to use other (lesser) players.

I think its a weak excuse to keep the players around, complain about their effect, then justify it on the "but what if injury" front.

The squad is clearly crying out for some leadership, some direction/focus, and I think removing supposed bad apples would be the most sensible place to start with that.
 
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thfcsteff said:
I am not sure what has been lost in translation here.

I do not blame the club for the Eriksen situation as I know the deal.

He is a unique situation in so much as he believed he could play for Barca and basically waited a season for them before adjusting his sights to Real Madrid.

As we go forward, however, the basic wage plus generous bonus scheme is not going to get the biggest fish/keep them happy, given the size of club we have physically become again.
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all depends who we buy though
Proven players I agree
Less proven it’s their chance to step up and still get big money
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
If its obvious as to why someone has been dropped, I think there is a degree of acceptance/patience if there is a need to use other (lesser) players.

I think its a weak excuse to keep the players around, complain about their effect, then justify it on the "but what if injury" front.

The squad is clearly crying out for some leadership, some direction/focus, and I think removing supposed bad apples would be the most sensible place to start with that.
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We have at least 5 players who are wantaways. That's almost half a team. They are not squad members either they are first teamers. Discarding them is terrible for the dynamic and morale of the squad. What do you do with that many players? have them train with the youth team? Why? They've done nothing wrong other than said they see their futures lie elsewhere.

The best thing was to sell them otherwise you as the manager is going to have a problem. Personally I think we should have got rid of Eriksen and Toby two summers ago. But we were stuck because finances being tough, we couldn't bring in replacements.

This is different from Poch's first season when it sounded like two distinct factions. The group who want to leave are mates with the ones who want to stay.
 
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Robspur12 said:
We have at least 5 players who are wantaways. That's almost half a team. They are not squad members either they are first teamers. Discarding them is terrible for the dynamic and morale of the squad. What do you do with that many players? have them train with the youth team? Why? They've done nothing wrong other than said they see their future elsewhere.

The best thing was to sell them otherwise you as the manager is going to have a problem. Personally I think we should have got rid of Eriksen and Toby two summers ago. But we were stuck because finances being tough we couldn't bring in replacement.

This is different from Poch's first season when it soundedsound two dist
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Keeping them has been terrible for the morale of the squad and team.

The choice was a fairly straight forward one. Either select them all as you normally would in any previous season an deal with the expired contracts at the end of this season or you let them all go and move on with the new start.

We haven't really done either, instead we have a Hodge podge of not selecting but then selecting and then dropping them again. Seems clear Poch doesn't really know how to handle this situation.

The thing I always like savour Poch was that he always seemed to be learning, if something didn't work he would adjust. This season though he has come across as flumoxed as to what to do.

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Raziel said:
Everyone needs to calm down, a question was asked, i.e. "why remove the year", I answered, it is a standard practice "In statistics, an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations."

You make a point that then the scope of data is insufficient, people can chose to agree or not. I could argue that it's not 5 data points, but 5 groups with 38 data points each (individual games), plus the comparison data of previous years. The argument could be made that including (the point of outlier removal) the 20% biases the data in exactly the opposite way

What that data shows for me is Poch did have a truly exceptional year, but the remainder were not the miracle/overperformance it is sometimes made out to be, but again opinions
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We'll be looking forward to leaving out this season's data as well then:D
 
Bishop said:
Keeping them has been terrible for the morale of the squad and team.

The choice was a fairly straight forward one. Either select them all as you normally would in any previous season an deal with the expired contracts at the end of this season or you let them all go and move on with the new start.

We haven't really done either, instead we have a Hodge podge of not selecting but then selecting and then dropping them again. Seems clear Poch doesn't really know how to handle this situation.

The thing I always like savour Poch was that he always seemed to be learning, if something didn't work he would adjust. This season though he has come across as flumoxed as to what to do.

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The morale of the team has not necessarily been bad. They are playing badly but is that down to low morale or low confidence and the wantaways not committing fully as they don't want to get injured? It is impossible to know for sure without more information.

He selected Eriksen when Lamela was injured and Lo Celso not up to speed. Difficult to justify not doing so if you believe the player will perform and has done for you consistently AND there are no other options for that role. We have never really covered Eriksen well in the squad. Once there was cover in the form of Lo Celso and Lamela, Eriksen is dropped again. Same with Toby, played when there were issues with Verts then dropped again when we have cover.
Rose, well there is Davies, who got himself injured, I cannot recall? So we needed cover and a rotation option. Plus Rose looks like he does give a brick in matches.

The point is we only have a little piece of information and we are drawing our own conclusions which have been biased by poor results. However, I find it hard to conclude Poch does not know what he is doing with the squad based on how well he has managed them up til the start of this season.
 
billyiddo said:
There are more logical reasons for excluding his first season in charge as opposed to his best, so any averages should be taken from 2nd season onward - if you're looking to paint an accurate picture.

Personally id say averaging a managers time in this way doesn't really show anything of note anyway - especially with a full season at Wembley to take in to consideration and then the following one where everything was up in the air regarding the move which will certainly have had a negative impact on points gained. Plenty of other variables im sure.
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And you could do that with the results as well, i.e. take away best and worst seasons ..
 
Raziel said:
Everyone needs to calm down, a question was asked, i.e. "why remove the year", I answered, it is a standard practice "In statistics, an outlier is an observation point that is distant from other observations."

You make a point that then the scope of data is insufficient, people can chose to agree or not. I could argue that it's not 5 data points, but 5 groups with 38 data points each (individual games), plus the comparison data of previous years. The argument could be made that including (the point of outlier removal) the 20% biases the data in exactly the opposite way

What that data shows for me is Poch did have a truly exceptional year, but the remainder were not the miracle/overperformance it is sometimes made out to be, but again opinions
Click to expand...
It can only be an outlier if there is a reason to exclude it from the other results. Otherwise 68 points achieved in the first season could also be regarded as an outlier.
 
Bishop said:
Keeping them has been terrible for the morale of the squad and team.

The choice was a fairly straight forward one. Either select them all as you normally would in any previous season an deal with the expired contracts at the end of this season or you let them all go and move on with the new start.

We haven't really done either, instead we have a Hodge podge of not selecting but then selecting and then dropping them again. Seems clear Poch doesn't really know how to handle this situation.

The thing I always like savour Poch was that he always seemed to be learning, if something didn't work he would adjust. This season though he has come across as flumoxed as to what to do.

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He has lost Lo Celso, Ndombele and Sess for vast parts of the season, and Tanguy excepted, none had a proper pre-season. It really isn’t quite as easy as it looks on paper.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
have no idea why this continues to be ignored, when it is the key point.
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I think I am learning that here, there are two different approaches. One involves a very clear business-trained, efficient and very stat/observation minded approach as you might have if you owned a company in the business of producing goods. Numbers don’t lie in such fields, and usually, business in this frame makes the decision to do whatever is necessary to raise the margins even if that means compromising the quality of life for the workforce.

The other involves a more holistic and contextual approach whereby stats and productivity are analyses through the prism of this specific “industry” not being one of tangible production but of human production...which has variables that often appear inconsistently.

This is not a comment on whether one is right or wrong, it is a genuine attempt to answer your questions.

I think believing in empathy or not in our situation will go a long way to defining what action you think the club should take.
 
thfcsteff said:
He has lost Lo Celso, Ndombele and Sess for vast parts of the season, and Tanguy excepted, none had a proper pre-season. It really isn’t quite as easy as it looks on paper.
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I wouldn't say it is an easy task but yet it is one he has to deal with. He isn't the first manager to be put in such difficult circumstances and as unfair as it might seem he has to just get on with the job. Based on what he has done so far, I think it would have been better to have just treated this season like any other and play his previously key men as usual. He hasn't done this and instead we are in a bit of a no mans land with regards who does or doesn't start.

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