DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
I don't know if you can call someone who puts more thought into imaginary football transfers than he does into his real-world job a 'genius'. Still, thank you, you're awfully kind.
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Mateo Musacchio
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
I don't know if you can call someone who puts more thought into imaginary football transfers than he does into his real-world job a 'genius'. Still, thank you, you're awfully kind.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
So Musacchio, Verts, Vlad and Dier as our 4 centre backs. A lot of uncertainty there with two players new to the PL, one of them very young, in Dier and Mus(t)acchio. Vlad who had a rather average first season and Verts who had a poor second season. Wouldn't fill me with confidence and it would leave us with centre backs aged 27, 24, 23(/24) and 20 with a total of 3 years of PL experience between them. A lot of potential and ability there I'm sure, just not convinced that we'll get any consistency this season.
Could very well be. I would hope that a 20 year old centre back signed for a solid chunk of money and seemingly valued higher by his club would be fairly close to good enough to be at least a squad player for us already.
If it meant getting someone like Vlaar in with experience to give us a (imo) more balanced set of central defenders I would be all for it though.
We don't need to sell anyone to fund either transfer.
We made a £5m odd surplus on player trading last summer. Since then, we've sold Defoe, Livermore, Sigurdsson and Falque for a combined £28m and we've bought Davies, Vorm and Dier for a combined £18m. So, in total, we're £15m up on player trading. Additionally, this will be the second season of the massively increased TV deal (having effectively spent none of last season's broadcast rights bonanza on transfers). Combined with the fact that our wage bill will likely have gone down, rather than up, over the past 12-18 months, there's plenty of money to spend now, should we choose to do so.
What we do need to do, however, is trim the squad of surplus players if we are to comply with the homegrown regulations for the 25 man squad. And that would give Daws more of a chance of staying - even though I believe that, for his sake and ours, he ought to leave. I very much doubt that Chiriches will leave now. Hasn't had a proper chance to show what he can do. So Kaboul looks to be the one most likely to go.
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DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
No, but highly unlikely. Now, if Dier is indeed Poch's first choice back-up, then we'll likely be looking at two or possibly all three of Daws, Chiriches and Kaboul moving on, which seems impossible risky considering that the only defender we'll have left who knows the club and has any chemistry going with his other team-mates is Verts: alternately, we'll have two CBs who know the club (namely, Verts and one of the others mentioned above), but given that Musacchio will likely be guaranteed a starting berth, we'll still be in the 'entirely new CB pairing' situation should Verts pick up an injury necessitating Dier stepping in for him. Also, if Dier was indeed the first choice backup, then we'd be looking at a 20-21 year old CB being the third choice CB ahead of one of Daws, Chiriches or Kaboul, which wouldn't be great for any of those players' moods or their confidence, which would again not go down to well for Poch.
Nah, Dier is likely one for the future: any other role for him now is too risky. Also, It's not just Dier we have to develop, you know: it's Veljkovic as well, who I firmly believe is at least as talented as Dier, if not more so, and who plays in the same positions (CD, DM) that Dier does. Logically, unless they're both good enough and experienced enough to be back-ups we'd be comfortable pairing up and putting into a PL game (like, say, Chiriches and Kaboul/Daws would), it's wiser to develop them both in increments, i.e loan one out and develop the other in-house, as the 4th choice CB. Veljkovic is good enough to be our 4th choice CB, behind Musacchio, Verts and one of the three players above, and the experience he'd gain from the EL/COC/FA Cup games would stand him in good stead next year, where at least one of Verts and Kaboul/Daws/Chiriches will move on, necessitating an upward promotion chain that sees the 3rd choice CB become a starter and the 4th choice CB become the primary back-up on the bench, and so on.
In the hypothetical scenario I proposed (Dier going on loan to La Liga), at the beginning of next season both Dier and Veljkovic would have some serious experience under their belts, and both would be viable enough options to step into the third and fourth choice CB positions, while the 3rd choice that we'll have going into this one (I suspect it's Chiriches) steps into the first eleven to replace Verts, who I think is off one way or another come summer 2015. At that stage, we could have a centre-back pool of Musacchio, Chiriches, Dier and Veljkovic, and we'd be set in that position for quite a few seasons: as Dier and Veljkovic develop (which they will: even if they don't get games at CB, their versatility will definitely see them get games as DM), they'll develop on-pitch chemistry with both each other and their team-mates, and eventually they'll both be serious contenders for the RCB slot. It is the most realistically optmistic course to take, and I think we should go for it: unless, of course, Dier wants to stay in England/ Veljkovic wants to go out on loan / Villarreal don't want Dier / Veljkovic or Dier aren't as good as we all think they are. Those are admitted pitfalls to this plan: still, it doesn't hurt to think up a long-term strategy for the club, even if we as fans don't know much of what goes on within it.
It's not like the Iberian peninsula's a new and uncertain place for the guy, after all. Immediate one-year loan to Villarreal should help them plug their defensive gap with a defender who's already made 30 appearances for the Sporting first team: on our side, we can slowly introduce him to top-flight football in a difficult, technically-sound, extremely competitive league without actually playing him ourselves, and Dier himself gets to spend another year close to his family, who I believe remain settled in Portugal if I'm not mistaken.
Musacchio for slightly under 20 million quid plus Dier on a year's loan. Sounds reasonable to me, if all parties are in agreement over it. Otherwise, if Kaboul's willing to go, we could always offer him to Villarreal in part-exchange for Musacchio, although that would leave us with just Chiriches, Verts and Daws as the senior centre-backs at the club ,and with Daws apparently on his way and out and Chiriches apparently not too vital to Poch's plans, could see us severely short of experience and mutual understanding at the heart of our back line come the start of the season.
No, his family moved back to the UK four years ago. He decided to stay in Lisbon and continue his education with Sporting. Besides which, there are probably more and cheaper flights from London to Lisbon than there are from Valencia (closest major airport to Villarreal)!
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
I'd like to direct you to the subsequent post I made. It'll probably make you even more dubious, given that I've effectively advocated a 4-man central defensive pool of Musacchio, Verts, Chiriches and Veljkovic.
Honestly though, I'd take the uncertainty this season: If we finish in the top six while seeing the team make genuine, tangible progress towards an effective, organized, attractive style of play, then I'd be satisfied. And that sort of attitude does allow for a lot of leeway when it comes to sacrificing pragmatic options that are good for this season in favour of long-term options that will (Hopefully) become real and effective by next season, which is when I'd ideally want the expectations of CL football/ trophies to really kick in. Still, it is my own opinion, and I don't begrudge anyone's wariness about the prospect of sacrificing this season in order to focus on 2015-2016.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Darn. Well, there goes Dier's hypothetical reasons for wanting a move to Villarreal. Erm...he has a craving for paella? Go to Villarreal dammit, so we can get Musacchio!
braineclipse
Willie Hall
I'd like to direct you to the subsequent post I made. It'll probably make you even more dubious, given that I've effectively advocated a 4-man central defensive pool of Musacchio, Verts, Chiriches and Veljkovic.
If that decision is being made and everyone involved at the club accepts it I would say go for it. That's not the reality of football management though I think. The short term is always important at this level and to some extent relative short term success is a prerequisite to success. And to some extent that's fair seeing as someone like Dier will learn a lot more if thrown in alongside someone who can help him out and organize the back 4 well like Vlaar than if he's thrown in alongside someone who can't. A well performing team this season will be very helpful for the development of our many young talented player I think.
Our focus so far in the window on PL experience has been a good choice for me. Leaving us very short on that and on experience in general and potentially on leadership/communication skills too at centre back just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
Dubai - it's an interesting hypothetical scenario.
Its flaw, though, is that I can't imagine that Villarreal would wish to replace their defensive rock and player of the season for 2013-14 with a rookie who has no experience of playing in a big league. Villarreal have not entirely dissimilar ambitions to ours (even if their budget is only a fraction of ours) and their domestic league is equally challenging and unforgiving - albeit in a different way. So I'm fairly certain that they will want to replace Musacchio with someone at least somewhat more tried and trusted than Dier.
Its flaw, though, is that I can't imagine that Villarreal would wish to replace their defensive rock and player of the season for 2013-14 with a rookie who has no experience of playing in a big league. Villarreal have not entirely dissimilar ambitions to ours (even if their budget is only a fraction of ours) and their domestic league is equally challenging and unforgiving - albeit in a different way. So I'm fairly certain that they will want to replace Musacchio with someone at least somewhat more tried and trusted than Dier.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Like I said, ideally I would like the club to give Poch a season free of any expectations beyond a respectable league position and let him drill his philosophy and approach into the lads: It is possible, but whether it is preferable I'll leave to the whims of the general consensus. I highly doubt that giving up on this season will be accepted by everyone at the club: I'd imagine at the very least one or two of our marquee names like Verts will be off next summer should we fail to reach the CL again this year. However, for me the chances of us reaching the CL immediately are remote enough to make focusing on that aim to the detriment of a gradual evolution in our play an unwise approach: hence, even the loss of a couple of our players due to us not aiming high enough is worth it for me, as long as next season the loss of said players doesn't affect the machine that Poch will have assembled by that point, the one that will be raring to go in 2015-2016 with clear ideas and deep team chemistry and understanding of what Poch wants them to do.
And, as a comment on the 'leadership/communication' point, let's not forget that both Verts and Chiriches have been captains in the recent past: Verts for Ajax in 2011-2012, and Chiriches for Romania from 2013 down to the present. There's leadership in those two. As for communication, I would posit to you that firstly, Kaboul (one of our alternatives to Chiriches as a backup CB) isn't a great communicator, and secondly, that Daws (the other alternative) is hamstrung by his lack of pace, which makes any communication abilities he may have irrelevant when one talks of the 'benefits' Daws brings to the club: in that regard, Daws' propensity to lose his man in a high line far outweighs the communication abilities he possesses in the grand scheme of things, and thus replacing him with a more moble option in either Dier or Veljkovic and letting them get a year in and around the first team would benefit us more long-term than keeping him here for another year.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
'Twas but a mental excercise.
Honestly, I'd like Dier to go out on loan to a top-division side in Europe, and if we could work him into the deal for Musacchio I'd be a happy man, provided he plays a lot. Still, I do recognise the validity of your point: it's unlikely he'd be their first-choice replacement for MM. Still, there must be a top-division European side who'll have him on loan: he's had more exposure to the market than Veljkovic has, after all, so he does seem the easier of the two to farm out for a year to a side that will genuinely improve him. The alternative (that he stays and will be our 4th/5th choice CB heading into 2014-2015) is less appealing to me given the similarities he shares with Veljkovic and the presumed effect his presence will have on opportunities for Milos.braineclipse
Willie Hall
Neither Dawson or Kaboul have shown themselves to have good leadership/communication skills of the kind I was talking about at least.
Vlad might have that in him, but he still needs to become comfortable at the club and in the league before he's ready for taking that on I think. Similarly Musacchio might very well have that in him (having captained Villareal at a young age), but should be given time. I agree that Jan does show some ability, but then we remain with the problem that we're relying on him to be fit and playing well. A month from now if Jan is injured do we trust any combination of Musacchio, Vlad and Dier to be at the level we require? I don't at this point at least and would much rather see someone like Vlaar in there. Similarly if Musacchio takes some time to adjust (not completely unreasonable considering he's now having a stop-start pre-season and if signed will be signed fairly close to the start of the season), do we trust Vlad or Dier to step in and perform alongside Vertonghen at this point? I'm unconvinced again.
Shropshire Yid
Hossam Ghaly
Did we sell them GDS?? If so, maybe we are owed money or sell on clauses from that which we could use to sweeten the deal?
We sold him to Mallorca.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Oh, I get it. It isn't retaining Daws or Kaboul you're advocating: it's buying someone experienced like Vlaar. But that would effectively mean either sending both Veljkovic and Dier out on loan or selling Kaboul, Daws and Chiriches in order to create a new CB pool of Verts, Musacchio, Vlaar and one of Dier or Veljkovic: in the first instance, the thought of sending both our CB prospects (one newly signed) on loan is a bit of a disappointing one when looked at from a 'youth team to first team' angle, and in the second, that transfer activity would ultimately leave us with three new CBs + Verts, which would inevitably lead to an instability among our centre backs and early defensive difficulties regardless of Vlaar's ability to organize and hold together the back line. Also, that would mean giving up on Chiriches, and given his evident potential that's also something I'm not entirely sold on doing, to be honest.
Shropshire Yid
Hossam Ghaly
My bad, I had it in my head it was them? Didn't realise there was a team inbetween!
Either way I think both this deal and the MS deal will get other the line, as someone to play on the left and it will be a damn good window!
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Sandro did.
We are already £9m in the black on this window's dealings, so would need to raise £30m to stay even.
Personally I'd go:
Dembele £15m
Kaboul £5m
Rose £5m
BAE £3m
Obika, Mason and Khumalo £2m (combined).
Or even just Dembele and Paulinho at £15m a pop
Kingdawson
Banned
I said realistic...not what you want to happen. It's clear as day Dembele and Rose are not going anywhere.
DublinSpur
Scott Parker
If you believe the press, we were close to an agreement at £17m. Now Villarreal want more than double that because of third-party ownership issues?
If that's a true reflection of the situation then I suspect Levy has already moved onto the next target on the list. I'm just hoping that's not a true reflection of the situation.
If that's a true reflection of the situation then I suspect Levy has already moved onto the next target on the list. I'm just hoping that's not a true reflection of the situation.