Jan Vertonghen

[thfcsteff]

I trust Poch to know what he needs and doesn't.
He's consistently defied some observers and I am hopeful he continues to do so with such positive results.

 

[braineclipse]

You have Wimmer, and if you don't trust him you have Dier to slot in and Bentaleb to play deep like at Leicester in the cup. Bentaleb knows the system, Dier knows the system. The CBs split and DM drops in...it is not easy to play if you don't know it. I would see if CCV is up to it for some cup games too personally.

We will be fine. We do not need another CB right now, it will not help.

This! Very much this!

We've seen Pochettino introduce players fairly slowly even after they had a pre-season with us (though obviously not always).

I'm assuming people aren't saying we should sign someone to step in ahead of Wimmer? So a 4th choice CB? Presumably someone with some experience? That's not used the system... But not actually so good that he'll be unhappy about coming here and sitting on the bench behind Wimmer?

That's not a particularly good centre back. That's not someone that knows the system. People might have their doubts over Bentaleb and others, but they at least know the system.

How can you say it will not help? What if we brought in a Kompany or a Stones? With Fazio not at the races and Verts possibly out all season, that just leaves Toby and Wimmer. One more injury to one of them and we are up brick creek.

You really think that's a relevant point? Why not bring in a Alba at left back? Why not bring in a Lahm at right back?

I trust Poch to know what he needs and doesn't.
He's consistently defied some observers and I am hopeful he continues to do so with such positive results.

Defied observers, critics, downright unfair and extremely harsh critics actually...

Under Pochettino we develop players. But so quickly people are all "Bentaleb isn't ready" so we need to sign someone else. If Pochettino had come to the club with that attitude half of our now excellent players wouldn't have developed nearly as much as they have and probably would have been squad players making little impact.

 

[Pirate55]

I stand by what I said.
The two players you have chosen are impossible targets in the next 5 days and you're simply being obtuse.

Those were extreme examples to disagree with your point that no CB would help. If you noticed I said "a Kompany or a Stones". Not Kompany or Stones. Subtle difference obviously lost. I could equally have said a Naybet or a Gallas. The point is we have a blockage in our squad. Fazio might as well not be there. I do not see the problem with replacing him.

I didn't say it would be easy, but I nevertheless think it would be sensible so as not to potentially disrupt our season.

 

[Jordinho]

Those were extreme examples to disagree with your point that no CB would help. If you noticed I said "a Kompany or a Stones". Not Kompany or Stones. Subtle difference obviously lost. I could equally have said a Naybet or a Gallas. The point is we have a blockage in our squad. Fazio might as well not be there. I do not see the problem with replacing him.

I didn't say it would be easy, but I nevertheless think it would be sensible so as not to potentially disrupt our season.

Given everything Poch says about mentality and the feeling and unity in the dressing room, bringing someone in could prove to be more disruptive. This is when we give a chance to the players that are already here and knows the system. We are intentionally working towards a smaller squad with more versatile players. Why would we need to replace someone who isn't involved?

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Those were extreme examples to disagree with your point that no CB would help. If you noticed I said "a Kompany or a Stones". Not Kompany or Stones. Subtle difference obviously lost. I could equally have said a Naybet or a Gallas. The point is we have a blockage in our squad. Fazio might as well not be there. I do not see the problem with replacing him.

I didn't say it would be easy, but I nevertheless think it would be sensible so as not to potentially disrupt our season.

Worst case scenario Wimmer or Toby get injured, at least Fazio has been training with the team all season, understands the system and is at the required fitness levels (or as near as he can be without getting games). Someone from the outside isn't.

 

[Pirate55]

I trust Poch to know what he needs and doesn't.
He's consistently defied some observers and I am hopeful he continues to do so with such positive results.

This is not a question of trusting Poch or not. What will you think if Poch buys another CB?

This discussion is our own opinion of what we think would be best. I am sure Poch could cope with the squad as it is (just as he has with no cover for Kane). That doesn't contradict the discussion of what individuals consider might be best and it certainly does not suggest that Poch is somehow wrong or has poor judgement

 

[Pirate55]

Worst case scenario Wimmer or Toby get injured, at least Fazio has been training with the team all season, understands the system and is at the required fitness levels (or as near as he can be without getting games). Someone from the outside isn't.

Someone earlier said the Poch isn't currently even talking to Fazio. If their relationship has broken down to that extent (and I have no way of knowing whether it has or not) then to play him would potentially be the worst of all worlds.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Someone earlier said the Poch isn't currently even talking to Fazio. If their relationship has broken down to that extent (and I have no way of knowing whether it has or not) then to play him would potentially be the worst of all worlds.

I doubt that's the case, but then again neither of us can know as you say.

Poch seems pretty good at getting the best out of players though, so maybe if the relationship has broken down it's not beyond saving.

Lets just hope Wimmer or Toby don't get injured!

 

[milo]

Someone earlier said the Poch isn't currently even talking to Fazio. If their relationship has broken down to that extent (and I have no way of knowing whether it has or not) then to play him would potentially be the worst of all worlds.

That's very speculative P55.

 

[Pirate55]

That's very speculative P55.

I agree, but no one knows for sure. What is apparent is that Fazio seems to have disappeared.

 

[milo]

I agree, but no one knows for sure. What is apparent is that Fazio seems to have disappeared.

If no one knows, it's not a very strong argument to use.

There's no denying that he has fallen down the pecking order but it is a position where we have seen very little rotation this season, so there have been limited options for him to feature.

 

[P.D.]

I guess we'll soon see, I'd expect Fazio to start on Saturday (at a minimum on the bench) to get some fitness to make sure he's got some game time prior to a busy month where he may be needed.

 

[DublinSpur]

If Vertonghen is out for 12 weeks (big IF) then we need to be planning for the rest of the season without him. An additional tweak or a slower than average recovery can easily turn 12 weeks into 15 (and that's the end of the season). On top of that, Pochettino appears to like bringing players back quite slowly from injury. This means we now have a centre back pairing of Wimmer and Alderweireld for the rest of this season, with Fazio for backup (who the manager doesn't seem to like) or Dier (which I believe significantly weakens our midfield - Bentaleb notwithstanding) or CCV / Veljkovic (who may not be ready yet).

That puts us one more injury (to Alderweireld or Wimmer) away from a very serious problem in defence (IMO). We may need additional cover... especially if Fazio is off.

 

[glorygloryeze]

If Vertonghen is out for 12 weeks (big IF) then we need to be planning for the rest of the season without him. An additional tweak or a slower than average recovery can easily turn 12 weeks into 15 (and that's the end of the season). On top of that, Pochettino appears to like bringing players back quite slowly from injury. This means we now have a centre back pairing of Wimmer and Alderweireld for the rest of this season, with Fazio for backup (who the manager doesn't seem to like) or Dier (which I believe significantly weakens our midfield - Bentaleb notwithstanding) or CCV / Veljkovic (who may not be ready yet).

That puts us one more injury (to Alderweireld or Wimmer) away from a very serious problem in defence (IMO). We may need additional cover... especially if Fazio is off.

I actually do wonder if this means we now need one or both of the following:

- a back-up to Dier in CM (i don't think Bentaleb is as good in that regard; i feel his skills will excel when he is next to a Dier-type who takes more of the responsibility to do the more defensive side of things in the CM area)

- more firepower upfront/back-up to Kane/player who can play alongside Kane if we want to play with 2 strikers and go for the jugular, aka overcompensate for a potential less solid defensive structure by being even more potent up front (ala Liverpool in 2013/14)

It'll be interesting what Poch does from here...

 

[braineclipse]

Those were extreme examples to disagree with your point that no CB would help. If you noticed I said "a Kompany or a Stones". Not Kompany or Stones. Subtle difference obviously lost. I could equally have said a Naybet or a Gallas. The point is we have a blockage in our squad. Fazio might as well not be there. I do not see the problem with replacing him.

I didn't say it would be easy, but I nevertheless think it would be sensible so as not to potentially disrupt our season.

So who are these players well described as "a Kompany" or "a Stones"??? Huge difference between them and Naybet and Gallas. Naybet and Gallas were brought in to play. Be regular starters, and did really well in those roles. That's different to bringing in someone to be a backup to our backup (Wimmer).

Another injury and our CB partnership is Dier and Wimmer or Toby and Dier with Bentaleb and Dembele in front of them. How come you are so confident that a new signing alongside either Toby or Wimmer with Dier and Dembele in front of them would be do better?

Again... New signing. Not used to the system. Probably not of great overall quality if he's cheap-ish and happy to be our 4th choice CB. Look at some of the backup CB's at some of our competitors... Caulker, Toure, Gabriel, Mangala, Demichelis etc. And some of those have been signed for significant money and/or on high wages. But we're just going to bring someone in that's not going to get much game time until called upon, that hasn't played under Poch, mid season in the difficult January transfer window and they're just automatically going to be better for us than Dier at CB and Bentaleb/Dembele as the DM?

And we pretty much replaced Fazio this summer. Remember us signing two centre backs in Alderweireld and Wimmer?

 

[braineclipse]

This is not a question of trusting Poch or not. What will you think if Poch buys another CB?

This discussion is our own opinion of what we think would be best. I am sure Poch could cope with the squad as it is (just as he has with no cover for Kane). That doesn't contradict the discussion of what individuals consider might be best and it certainly does not suggest that Poch is somehow wrong or has poor judgement

I would be fine with it.

What will you think if Poch doesn't buy another CB after claiming that we desperately need a new CB?

 

[Pirate55]

I would be fine with it.

What will you think if Poch doesn't buy another CB after claiming that we desperately need a new CB?

I said that I think we need to replace the fourth CB in the squad if Poch has no use for Fazio in order to balance the squad. Hardly controversial I would have thought.

All your suggested permutations require a re-jig of the team following a further injury. It is easy to underestimate the role Dier has had In protecting the back four. Last season with Mason and Bentaleb there we looked really shaky through the middle. The CB s are definitely an improvement bur Dier is the key IMO. To move him out of this position would really diminish us and potentially undermine our entire defensive structure. A replacement CB is far the more preferable option IMO.

The points you make can equally apply to any January signing. it doesn't mean we shouldn't sign anyone in January ever.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

So who are these players well described as "a Kompany" or "a Stones"??? Huge difference between them and Naybet and Gallas. Naybet and Gallas were brought in to play. Be regular starters, and did really well in those roles. That's different to bringing in someone to be a backup to our backup (Wimmer).

Another injury and our CB partnership is Dier and Wimmer or Toby and Dier with Bentaleb and Dembele in front of them. How come you are so confident that a new signing alongside either Toby or Wimmer with Dier and Dembele in front of them would be do better?

Again... New signing. Not used to the system. Probably not of great overall quality if he's cheap-ish and happy to be our 4th choice CB. Look at some of the backup CB's at some of our competitors... Caulker, Toure, Gabriel, Mangala, Demichelis etc. And some of those have been signed for significant money and/or on high wages. But we're just going to bring someone in that's not going to get much game time until called upon, that hasn't played under Poch, mid season in the difficult January transfer window and they're just automatically going to be better for us than Dier at CB and Bentaleb/Dembele as the DM?

And we pretty much replaced Fazio this summer. Remember us signing two centre backs in Alderweireld and Wimmer?

Exactly this. At the moment we are far from a critical situation....how much cover for cover for cover do we need? Poch will deal with it.

I actually think that if Toby got inj/susp he would drop Dier back but if Wimmer got inj/susp it wouldn't surprise me if he put Davies in as left sided CH, so to leave his midfield options unaltered.

 

[braineclipse]

I said that I think we need to replace the fourth CB in the squad if Poch has no use for Fazio in order to balance the squad. Hardly controversial I would have thought.

All your suggested permutations require a re-jig of the team following a further injury. It is easy to underestimate the role Dier has had In protecting the back four. Last season with Mason and Bentaleb there we looked really shaky through the middle. The CB s are definitely an improvement bur Dier is the key IMO. To move him out of this position would really diminish us and potentially undermine our entire defensive structure. A replacement CB is far the more preferable option IMO.

The points you make can equally apply to any January signing. it doesn't mean we shouldn't sign anyone in January ever.

It's not uncommon to have your 4th choice CB be someone who plays or can play in another position. Ivanovich for years at Chelsea is a prime example. Busquets at Barca another. That wasn't because these clubs couldn't afford another backup CB on their books... Yes it's unfortunate to have to re-jig your team. But chances are whatever you do after getting two of your 3 highest rated centre backs injured is going to be a bit unfortunate. Looking for a solution where this isn't unfortunate is a mistake in my opinion as no such solution is likely to be found.

The benfit to re-jigging rather than just adding another backup CB is that the player coming in is more likely to be match fit. As rotation of centre backs is a big no no for a lot of managers that's a significant benefit. That could easily be seen to outweigh the negatives you highlight. We've been used to being pretty heavily loaded at centre back, but we've also been used to having injury prone centre backs for almost as long as I can remember. And in this instance obviously there's also the benefit of the players being used to playing in our system.

How does what I'm saying apply to signing Dembele this January for example? I just don't think that it's true that what I say is a counter argument towards any January signing. It really seems you're just trying to take my arguments to some absurd extreme where supposedly what I say is also an argument for not signing anyone in January...

 

[thfcsteff]

This is not a question of trusting Poch or not. What will you think if Poch buys another CB?

This discussion is our own opinion of what we think would be best. I am sure Poch could cope with the squad as it is (just as he has with no cover for Kane). That doesn't contradict the discussion of what individuals consider might be best and it certainly does not suggest that Poch is somehow wrong or has poor judgement

What?
Look.
I simply don't agree with you OK? Simple. And I further stated that I trust the manager. Absolutely nowt about your thoughts on him.