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Fergie: Retired, Moyes: Sacked, LVG/Giggs: The New Super Duo
- Thread starter Mr Bob Dobalina
- Start date
THE DARK ANDRE
Dave McEwen
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
Just like to add my thoughts on the whole Fergie retirement, seeing as I haven't actually commented on it in here yet :lol:
I think the true measure of his ability was shown this season when he took a bunch of talented but raw young players and mixed them with a few wise old heads in order to win the prem by a mile. How many managers would have won the league so easily with that squad this season, especially when you consider the squads at Emirates Marketing Project at Chelsea which are just as good, if not better (Emirates Marketing Project)? Having said that, some of that lead was probably Mancini's doing more than anybody elses (Hello Kiz).
Just like to add my thoughts on the whole Fergie retirement, seeing as I haven't actually commented on it in here yet :lol:
I think the true measure of his ability was shown this season when he took a bunch of talented but raw young players and mixed them with a few wise old heads in order to win the prem by a mile. How many managers would have won the league so easily with that squad this season, especially when you consider the squads at Emirates Marketing Project at Chelsea which are just as good, if not better (Emirates Marketing Project)? Having said that, some of that lead was probably Mancini's doing more than anybody elses (Hello Kiz).
metalgear
Nayim
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
i think anyone that calls people deluded for thinking that Moyes will actually be the one managing United are therefore claiming to be ITK. and we all know what an ITK is over here dont we
i think anyone that calls people deluded for thinking that Moyes will actually be the one managing United are therefore claiming to be ITK. and we all know what an ITK is over here dont we
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
What options?
SAF has basically left Moyes a team and said "here, don't do anything stupid and this will be your base for years to come"...
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No... He has made Everton compete for the "winner without the big 4" title... Admittedly that got smashed a little while back, but for years it was effectively the Spanish "winner without Barca or Madrid" title. It's not just a case of teams being difficult to beat. If that was the case then he'd have gone the way of Villa last season and got 3423423423423 draws, 2 wins and been sacked.
You aren't looking at the league through Everton eyes. It's like they're in a league with Bayern Munich, Barca, Real Madrid and so on.... Winning it wasn't ever going to happen. What they do every year is beat the weaker teams, compete with the teams around them and put up as best a fight they can against the giants.
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United's policy the same as Everton's policy. The entire top 7 have that same policy.
Against weak teams: Smash them.
Against equal or better teams:
Mancini: Defend for your lives.
Rafa: Compact.
SAF: Man mark Ronaldo, Bale, afroman...
The list goes on. Did you not see United vs us at WHL? They spent the entire afternoon trying to defend like fudge and nick a 1-0 from a counter attack. Against Real Madrid they admitted Real Madrid were better than them and decided to defend more than they would against QPR... (Which is exactly what Moyes does.)
City and Chelsea have had some of the most boring matches this season, Rafa's first match vs City probably was the most boring.
Arsenal in domestic competitions haven't parked the bus... And they did try to set up slightly more conservatively vs Bayern, but didn't park the bus then either.... That hasn't really worked out for them, one win all season vs top 5 clubs and that was against us when we were winning and then had a man sent off... And they did lose at WHL due to refusing to defend and focusing on their own game. I think they got 4 points vs Everton, which is the highest placed team they got 4 points from.
Do you really think the Man United board will consider Moyes knowing how to be difficult to beat as a bad thing?
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They have to count on the Manchester United name, they have to count on being champions, they have to count on their deep pockets... There are very few managers that can add on the "I want to play for this great manager" factor, I really don't see that being
As I said though, SAF has left Moyes more than Moyes could possibly have asked for... SAF has done as much of this for Moyes as he can.... "Oh, Valencia, Nani and Young have been brick this year... I signed this winger for a fudgeton of money in January."
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I really don't see the mystery. Moyes is pretty much going to be caretaker of SAF's current team for a few years. If Moyes does manage to do well for the next few years, he gets to build a new team... If Moyes doesn't do well, Guardiola should be just coming out of Bayern, Mourinho should just be moving on, Klopp might be on the move.
It's good for both United and Moyes... He gets his big chance, they have someone to reduce the pressure on the next manager in. The manager after SAF is always going to be near impossible... It's like Valencia replacing Ronaldo. But the manager replacing Moyes should have a fairly easy job, and if it's a top manager, they like to build their own teams anyway.
Moyes has pretty much the same management style as SAF, his teams have pretty much the same qualities, he's basically mini SAF as he is. It makes complete sense as long as you accept that Moyes isn't as good as SAF and everyone at United know this.
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I honestly don't see the options you spoke of. Guardiola and Klopp aren't on the table. (United might want to watch Klopp for a few years, might want to see Guardiola at another club too.) Mourinho might not have even been on the table... Pellegrini was definitely on the table. A couple of managers have international contracts... Unless they waited for the summer and waited to see what PSG did or something...
I think SAF has put a lot of effort into building a team, winning a title and being able to retire in the way he wants, with the next manager not having to do much to have a very good chance next season. I don't think he would want his team smashed up just yet.
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Klopp won't break his contract. He told Liverpool to fudge off too. I love that guy.
I agree with the rest of your post too. (I tend to agree with about 99% of your posts.)
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He really should have won something. Not that we've done spectacularly well in cups, but Everton should have a Carling Cup or something. Wigan are so random, 3-0 vs Everton in the F.A Cup this year... If Everton had been the ones vs City in the final this year, Moyes could have been a hero for both Everton and United fans if he led Everton to victory.
Between the lack of cups, the unfortunate failure in the CL qualifying round and the lack of notable away wins, Moyes has a lot of pressure to start next season well... If he starts slowly, he's going to have the media on his back far worse than AVB did here.
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Alternative suggestion: The scouser with the lamp used his last wish.
What options?
SAF has basically left Moyes a team and said "here, don't do anything stupid and this will be your base for years to come"...
----------------
No... He has made Everton compete for the "winner without the big 4" title... Admittedly that got smashed a little while back, but for years it was effectively the Spanish "winner without Barca or Madrid" title. It's not just a case of teams being difficult to beat. If that was the case then he'd have gone the way of Villa last season and got 3423423423423 draws, 2 wins and been sacked.
You aren't looking at the league through Everton eyes. It's like they're in a league with Bayern Munich, Barca, Real Madrid and so on.... Winning it wasn't ever going to happen. What they do every year is beat the weaker teams, compete with the teams around them and put up as best a fight they can against the giants.
---------------
United's policy the same as Everton's policy. The entire top 7 have that same policy.
Against weak teams: Smash them.
Against equal or better teams:
Mancini: Defend for your lives.
Rafa: Compact.
SAF: Man mark Ronaldo, Bale, afroman...
The list goes on. Did you not see United vs us at WHL? They spent the entire afternoon trying to defend like fudge and nick a 1-0 from a counter attack. Against Real Madrid they admitted Real Madrid were better than them and decided to defend more than they would against QPR... (Which is exactly what Moyes does.)
City and Chelsea have had some of the most boring matches this season, Rafa's first match vs City probably was the most boring.
Arsenal in domestic competitions haven't parked the bus... And they did try to set up slightly more conservatively vs Bayern, but didn't park the bus then either.... That hasn't really worked out for them, one win all season vs top 5 clubs and that was against us when we were winning and then had a man sent off... And they did lose at WHL due to refusing to defend and focusing on their own game. I think they got 4 points vs Everton, which is the highest placed team they got 4 points from.
Do you really think the Man United board will consider Moyes knowing how to be difficult to beat as a bad thing?
--------------
They have to count on the Manchester United name, they have to count on being champions, they have to count on their deep pockets... There are very few managers that can add on the "I want to play for this great manager" factor, I really don't see that being
As I said though, SAF has left Moyes more than Moyes could possibly have asked for... SAF has done as much of this for Moyes as he can.... "Oh, Valencia, Nani and Young have been brick this year... I signed this winger for a fudgeton of money in January."
---------------
I really don't see the mystery. Moyes is pretty much going to be caretaker of SAF's current team for a few years. If Moyes does manage to do well for the next few years, he gets to build a new team... If Moyes doesn't do well, Guardiola should be just coming out of Bayern, Mourinho should just be moving on, Klopp might be on the move.
It's good for both United and Moyes... He gets his big chance, they have someone to reduce the pressure on the next manager in. The manager after SAF is always going to be near impossible... It's like Valencia replacing Ronaldo. But the manager replacing Moyes should have a fairly easy job, and if it's a top manager, they like to build their own teams anyway.
Moyes has pretty much the same management style as SAF, his teams have pretty much the same qualities, he's basically mini SAF as he is. It makes complete sense as long as you accept that Moyes isn't as good as SAF and everyone at United know this.
----------------------
I honestly don't see the options you spoke of. Guardiola and Klopp aren't on the table. (United might want to watch Klopp for a few years, might want to see Guardiola at another club too.) Mourinho might not have even been on the table... Pellegrini was definitely on the table. A couple of managers have international contracts... Unless they waited for the summer and waited to see what PSG did or something...
I think SAF has put a lot of effort into building a team, winning a title and being able to retire in the way he wants, with the next manager not having to do much to have a very good chance next season. I don't think he would want his team smashed up just yet.
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skyfarer said:
Klopp won't break his contract. He told Liverpool to fudge off too. I love that guy.
I agree with the rest of your post too. (I tend to agree with about 99% of your posts.)
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He really should have won something. Not that we've done spectacularly well in cups, but Everton should have a Carling Cup or something. Wigan are so random, 3-0 vs Everton in the F.A Cup this year... If Everton had been the ones vs City in the final this year, Moyes could have been a hero for both Everton and United fans if he led Everton to victory.
Between the lack of cups, the unfortunate failure in the CL qualifying round and the lack of notable away wins, Moyes has a lot of pressure to start next season well... If he starts slowly, he's going to have the media on his back far worse than AVB did here.
-------------------
Alternative suggestion: The scouser with the lamp used his last wish.
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
I'll take your opinion on board, but I think Fergie might have more of an idea than me or you on who is good enough for them....
I'll take your opinion on board, but I think Fergie might have more of an idea than me or you on who is good enough for them....
braineclipse
Willie Hall
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
United have been outstanding against the weak (bottom half) teams this season, astonishing results. They have a tendency to just find a winner and just find a way to overpower smaller teams. Everton haven't really ever had that ability under Moyes. I think questions can be asked about his ability to set up a team that will go out and consistently beat teams that park the bus. Of course he will have better players available and it will be easier at United than at Everton, but it's still an area where he hasn't proven himself.
Another area is the mental aspect of the game. When the end of the season is approaching United have almost always been able to trust Ferguson to instill the right mentality in his players for the key matches. Yes they lost out last season, but more often than not they come out on top. They were the better team over two legs against Real in the CL this season, I think that mentality that pushes them that extra inch in those key games at least partly stems from Ferguson. Moyes has never shown himself to have that, in fact they've been known as bottlers, perhaps somewhat unfairly, but he at least hasn't shown himself to excel in that area.
It's a CL semi-final, or a final, or a tough league game they must win at the end of a season etc. Three potential managers to manage the team in the buildup, give the team talk before the game and at half time to make sure the players are in the right frame of mind. Ferguson, Mourinho and Moyes. For me at least there's clearly an odd one out there.
That's not to say that he can't make the step up, that he can't possess those abilities, but he just hasn't been at a club where he could show it. But until he does he will be unproven at that level, unlike some of the other candidates being linked to the job, thus people are asking questions.
United have been outstanding against the weak (bottom half) teams this season, astonishing results. They have a tendency to just find a winner and just find a way to overpower smaller teams. Everton haven't really ever had that ability under Moyes. I think questions can be asked about his ability to set up a team that will go out and consistently beat teams that park the bus. Of course he will have better players available and it will be easier at United than at Everton, but it's still an area where he hasn't proven himself.
Another area is the mental aspect of the game. When the end of the season is approaching United have almost always been able to trust Ferguson to instill the right mentality in his players for the key matches. Yes they lost out last season, but more often than not they come out on top. They were the better team over two legs against Real in the CL this season, I think that mentality that pushes them that extra inch in those key games at least partly stems from Ferguson. Moyes has never shown himself to have that, in fact they've been known as bottlers, perhaps somewhat unfairly, but he at least hasn't shown himself to excel in that area.
It's a CL semi-final, or a final, or a tough league game they must win at the end of a season etc. Three potential managers to manage the team in the buildup, give the team talk before the game and at half time to make sure the players are in the right frame of mind. Ferguson, Mourinho and Moyes. For me at least there's clearly an odd one out there.
That's not to say that he can't make the step up, that he can't possess those abilities, but he just hasn't been at a club where he could show it. But until he does he will be unproven at that level, unlike some of the other candidates being linked to the job, thus people are asking questions.
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
I'm amazed at how "go with the sentiment" the media is, looked at most of the online British media
- There really isn't a single report that critically looks at if Moyes really has the credentials to succeed?
- Or even questions, should have United considered others, and who would those others have been?
I find that quite ridiculous, the media is such a bandwagon.
I'm amazed at how "go with the sentiment" the media is, looked at most of the online British media
- There really isn't a single report that critically looks at if Moyes really has the credentials to succeed?
- Or even questions, should have United considered others, and who would those others have been?
I find that quite ridiculous, the media is such a bandwagon.
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
Right now their agenda seems to be reassuring United fans that everything is peachy. I think it's a good appointment, but journalists are supposed to look at things from more than one angle I thought. They care more about creating news than reporting it these days anyway.
Right now their agenda seems to be reassuring United fans that everything is peachy. I think it's a good appointment, but journalists are supposed to look at things from more than one angle I thought. They care more about creating news than reporting it these days anyway.
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
Moyes record against the top 4, against Pool, in his one CL shot, in his one Cup Final justifies the bottlers tab, his teams choke whenever it really matters.
His style of football is also fairly dreadful, Everton are persistent niggling foulers, they concentrate more on not allowing the game to flow.
His big qualification seems to be loyalty and he's a Scot .. I don't get it. To me it seems like SAF is too close to the problem and made a biased call for someone who wouldn't come in and significantly change his setup. Where in truth, United probably needed someone to come in and rebuild the team, setup a new style that could compete in Europe, could defend the title against what will be significantly better City/Cheat$ki sides next year.
Moyes record against the top 4, against Pool, in his one CL shot, in his one Cup Final justifies the bottlers tab, his teams choke whenever it really matters.
His style of football is also fairly dreadful, Everton are persistent niggling foulers, they concentrate more on not allowing the game to flow.
His big qualification seems to be loyalty and he's a Scot .. I don't get it. To me it seems like SAF is too close to the problem and made a biased call for someone who wouldn't come in and significantly change his setup. Where in truth, United probably needed someone to come in and rebuild the team, setup a new style that could compete in Europe, could defend the title against what will be significantly better City/Cheat$ki sides next year.
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
Exactly, doesn't matter if you think Moyes is a decent appointment, there is no room for a single article that says "who were the top 5 candidates in world football for the job? and why Moyes?"
Exactly, doesn't matter if you think Moyes is a decent appointment, there is no room for a single article that says "who were the top 5 candidates in world football for the job? and why Moyes?"
braineclipse
Willie Hall
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
Agreed. It's the easier and cheaper story to write, pandering to the lowest common denominator makes easy money it seems. Also I think journalists and newspapers are a bit worried about tinkling off United, Ferguson and now Moyes. Having the inside interview on Moyes now could be a big story, if someone tinkles him off by being critical they won't get that interview. We know how much power Ferguson gained over the media, no real reason to think Moyes won't try to maneuver himself into a similar position.
Dreadful journalism though, only journalism in name actually.
Yeah, it's possible. I'm not really disagreeing, just saying that it's open for debate. It could also be argued that Moyes has had Everton over performing for a decade now and pointing out where his ceiling was is unfair as there would have been a ceiling regardless that could have been criticized and without him it might very well have been lower.
Agreed. It's the easier and cheaper story to write, pandering to the lowest common denominator makes easy money it seems. Also I think journalists and newspapers are a bit worried about tinkling off United, Ferguson and now Moyes. Having the inside interview on Moyes now could be a big story, if someone tinkles him off by being critical they won't get that interview. We know how much power Ferguson gained over the media, no real reason to think Moyes won't try to maneuver himself into a similar position.
Dreadful journalism though, only journalism in name actually.
Yeah, it's possible. I'm not really disagreeing, just saying that it's open for debate. It could also be argued that Moyes has had Everton over performing for a decade now and pointing out where his ceiling was is unfair as there would have been a ceiling regardless that could have been criticized and without him it might very well have been lower.
Superted
Jonathan Woodgate
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
I'm looking forward to next season. I think it will be Chelsea and City 1 & 2 by some distance, assuming both fix their management problems (though I reckon Rafa is starting to do well at Chelsea).
Moyes to Man U kills 2 birds - Man U will be amongst the teams fighting for 3rd and 4th and Everton will be out of the picture.
I'm looking forward to next season. I think it will be Chelsea and City 1 & 2 by some distance, assuming both fix their management problems (though I reckon Rafa is starting to do well at Chelsea).
Moyes to Man U kills 2 birds - Man U will be amongst the teams fighting for 3rd and 4th and Everton will be out of the picture.
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
I see Chelsea, City and United as teams that should reach 80 points with ease. With the higher quality of players available to him, Moyes should be able to do that. Fourth will be between us and Arsenal, Liverpool in 6th, but they'll be closer than this season.
What I want (expect) from Spurs is more goals scored, fewer conceded and a few more points picked up. Where that takes us only time will tell.
I see Chelsea, City and United as teams that should reach 80 points with ease. With the higher quality of players available to him, Moyes should be able to do that. Fourth will be between us and Arsenal, Liverpool in 6th, but they'll be closer than this season.
What I want (expect) from Spurs is more goals scored, fewer conceded and a few more points picked up. Where that takes us only time will tell.
I
Invasion
Guest
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
The press are already on Moyes back for not answering Utd related questions at an Everton press conference.
The press are already on Moyes back for not answering Utd related questions at an Everton press conference.
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
Anyone think it's cheaper for Utd to pay off a manager's 6 year contract whilst getting players on the cheap than it is to pay full price for the players?
Anyone think it's cheaper for Utd to pay off a manager's 6 year contract whilst getting players on the cheap than it is to pay full price for the players?
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
Yeah, because he has a successful history of hiring managers?
Yeah, because he has a successful history of hiring managers?
Re: Fergie: Officially Retiring - Moyes Taking Over
Took a football man to do what the journalists couldn't: Is David Moyes really the ideal man for Manchester United, asks @karlsentk
Took a football man to do what the journalists couldn't: Is David Moyes really the ideal man for Manchester United, asks @karlsentk