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Eric Dier

braineclipse said:
There's no strict cut off of course. Just a preference for those at one end of the spectrum.

I was talking slightly higher than that as truly elite clubs.

Not sure I've suggested that Wanyama cannot pass and always gives the ball away... I think you might be arguing either against no one, or against just one poster in this case.

Of course if we played the style of Leicester this would be a completely different conversation. We don't though and I don't want us to. But the conversation kept going on about ball playing centre backs with quite a few of us being for it and others saying centre backs should only really be about defending. Now that we actually have two really good ball playing centre backs that conversation has disappeared because the advantages are clear to see. Just like the "what's the point of a deep playmaker" conversation largely disappeared once the "Michael Carrick, what does he do" people saw what was bleeding obvious. Just like even the most ardent Modric critic eventually realized just what he brought to the club. If at some point Dier is upgraded on or replaced by a better ball playing deep midfielder (not saying it will or must happen) I think similarly the DM only needs to do this or that conversation will disappear (for a while).
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So to summarise, you don't think we should upgrade Dier, but if we did you would want us to do so by bringing in a playmaker?

A few questions if I may:

1. Does the playmaker have to be as good defensively as Dier is?
2. Does the playmaker also have to be quite physical to help us defend set pieces?
3. Does the playmaker cover/replace either/both of Dier/Dembele?
4. Do we play a different sort of style of play with the playmaker or does he just slot into the team and we play in the same way that we do now?
5. Do you have any examples of the type of player out there that we could get? Is Kovacic that sort of player for example?

As an aside I have always been keen on having ball playing centre halves (although they also need to be able to defend - they can't be good on the ball but a disaster physically like Chiriches)

I loved Carrick from his first game played for Spurs (and indeed had been banging on to various people about wanting us to sign him for more than a year before we actually got him). I also rated Modric from very early on. I would love us to be able to replace Dier with a player who had all of Dier's defensive discipline and quality only with better control, vision and pass execution, I'm just not sure that we can get such a player?

Regarding a definition of the elite/truly elite clubs.... To get into the latter, I think we have to first become a part of the former. We are a third tier club in Europe at the moment. I doubt we can get into the top tier without travelling into and through the second tier.

braineclipse said:
I really do think Dier has shown more promise on the ball than Wanyama. Earlier this season he did accept playing with some risk and he showed good skill on the ball as well as a good repertoire of passing. He seemed to grow timid towards the last couple of months of the season with pressure building and increasingly kept it very simple. I hope going into next season with more experience he will once again accept more responsibility on the ball.

Dier is just 22 and just finished his first season playing in midfield. Wanyama will be 25 this summer. I think there's more room for Dier to improve in this regard than there is for Wanyama.
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Personally I didn't really notice much difference in Dier's passing ability/range early or late in the season. I would say that he has a slightly clumsy touch compared to a truly good passer (such as Eriksen for example) and for that reason he is fine passing when he has time, but less good when afforded little time on the ball. In the last couple of games he didn't have the luxury of being able to give the ball to Dembele, who our players can pass to even when tightly marked, that probably exposed Dier's limitations a little more.

I agree that there is probably more room for Dier to improve than Wanyama considering he is two and a half years younger. However I do not see him developing into a playmaker, I instead see things like his positional sense and decision making improving. There is also an argument to be made around players always looking better when surrounded by better players. A good example of this is Mark Noble at West Ham, who looked a far better player this season playing with the likes of Kouyate, Lanzini and Payet. Perhaps Wanyama would look even better if having the luxury of Dembele, Eriksen, Alli and Lamela offering movement and options for him to pass the ball to?.... not to mention receiving better quality passes in the first place from those players plus Toby and Jan at centre half?
 
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Finney Is Back said:
So to summarise, you don't think we should upgrade Dier, but if we did you would want us to do so by bringing in a playmaker?

A few questions if I may:

1. Does the playmaker have to be as good defensively as Dier is?
2. Does the playmaker also have to be quite physical to help us defend set pieces?
3. Does the playmaker cover/replace either/both of Dier/Dembele?
4. Do we play a different sort of style of play with the playmaker or does he just slot into the team and we play in the same way that we do now?
5. Do you have any examples of the type of player out there that we could get? Is Kovacic that sort of player for example?

As an aside I have always been keen on having ball playing centre halves (although they also need to be able to defend - they can't be good on the ball but a disaster physically like Chiriches)

I loved Carrick from his first game played for Spurs (and indeed had been banging on to various people about wanting us to sign him for more than a year before we actually got him). I also rated Modric from very early on. I would love us to be able to replace Dier with a player who had all of Dier's defensive discipline and quality only with better control, vision and pass execution, I'm just not sure that we can get such a player?

Regarding a definition of the elite/truly elite clubs.... To get into the latter, I think we have to first become a part of the former. We are a third tier club in Europe at the moment. I doubt we can get into the top tier without travelling into and through the second tier.
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I'm not saying we should try to upgrade on Dier with a playmaker immediately. I'm talking longer term. I obviously haven't been clear enough on that as you think I don't understand we have to transition through stages over time.

1. No.
2. No.
3. Either.
4. Somewhat different of course.
5. Not that we can sign to slot right in. As I've said repeatedly I want us to sign someone to develop or develop someone like Bentaleb already at the club.

Of course for being better in more areas is better than not. And of course any player in that role has to be up to a certain level defensively and physically.
 
braineclipse said:
I'm not saying we should try to upgrade on Dier with a playmaker immediately. I'm talking longer term. I obviously haven't been clear enough on that as you think I don't understand we have to transition through stages over time.

1. No.
2. No.
3. Either.
4. Somewhat different of course.
5. Not that we can sign to slot right in. As I've said repeatedly I want us to sign someone to develop or develop someone like Bentaleb already at the club.

Of course for being better in more areas is better than not. And of course any player in that role has to be up to a certain level defensively and physically.
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Thanks. In light of the answers to your first two questions are you not concerned that we would regress defensively? How do we cope with the opposition breaking, also how do we deal with defending set pieces better if replacing Dier with a player who is less physical and has less presence in defending set pieces? Why do you think Pochettino put Dier into the defensive midfield position despite already having Bentaleb at the club? Do you think that perhaps he sees that role as ideally requiring a different set of skills to those that Bentaleb possesses? (after all there is less than a year between Bentaleb and Dier and at the start of last season Bentaleb had played more PL games than Dier and many more in midfield).
 
Dier being replaced being discussed? Behave, this bloke is in what, his first real season in this role and has mastered it. Give him a break, at his age he could go on to be a legend and we are already replacing him.

I suppose summer is slow and we need something to discuss.
 
We travelled to Dortmund and left Dier at home and lost 3-0.

We can not survive on Eric Dier alone. We need another holding midfielder for rotation and competition, not to replace.

If you see what Poch has done with the full backs, he will want 22 players in that situation in an ideal world, where the system is king and players can slip in and out where needed.
 
Shropshire Yid said:
We can not survive on Eric Dier alone. We need another holding midfielder for rotation and competition, not to replace.
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Yeh I agree, that has always been my point which him and Dembele, we need to support them so that Carroll or Mason are not needed (sorry they are not good enough).

But to replace Dier? My GHod
 
braineclipse said:
I really do think Dier has shown more promise on the ball than Wanyama. Earlier this season he did accept playing with some risk and he showed good skill on the ball as well as a good repertoire of passing. He seemed to grow timid towards the last couple of months of the season with pressure building and increasingly kept it very simple. I hope going into next season with more experience he will once again accept more responsibility on the ball.

Dier is just 22 and just finished his first season playing in midfield. Wanyama will be 25 this summer. I think there's more room for Dier to improve in this regard than there is for Wanyama.
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i agree with the bolded part for sure - he has more potential (in terms of on the ball ability) than Wanyama, i just don't think they're worlds apart right now and i think an outsider wouldn't particularly rate Diers on the ball ability right now all that high, I have read on a mixed supporters board that being a recurring theme whenever Dier is discussed - though i don't expect that type of anecdotal evidence to hold much sway ...

for me Wanyama is a good solution to our lack of cover for Dier - will be cheap as he's in the last year of his contract, he knows the league, he knows our manager and importantly the defensive side of his game is very strong (arguably stronger than Dier at this point in time) i also think he'd accept not being an automatic starter for us. I think had we had him in our ranks in the season just gone we'd probably have saved many of the points we dropped from leading positions, definitely enough to finish 2nd and possibly enough for more.

Im not saying it has to be Wanyama, i just think all the factors combined make him a stand out candidate - our first choice in that position is already a young player that we are looking to develop, so having a more senior player to rotate with him doesn't go against that overall policy imo and his on the ball ability really doesn't hold him back - not in the role in which Dier plays anyway, were we still set up with two box to box types in a double pivot as we were the season previous it would be a different story and tbh im not sure Dier would cut it in that type of set up either - but in this system as Diers cover? it's a no brainer for me
 
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Wanyama would be decent cover for Dier but his versatility to play any other role isn't there form what I've seen... But that doesn't make him a bad option at all

Regarding the playmaker comment, how about Pjanic?
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Wanyama would be decent cover for Dier but his versatility to play any other role isn't there form what I've seen... But that doesn't make him a bad option at all

Regarding the playmaker comment, how about Pjanic?
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But because Dier is quite versatile, that wouldn't matter imo. For example, if we had an injury crisis at right-back or centre-half, we can put Dier back there and drop Wanyama into the defensive midfield role and the team will tick along nicely.
 
billyiddo said:
i agree with the bolded part for sure - he has more potential (in terms of on the ball ability) than Wanyama, i just don't think they're worlds apart right now and i think an outsider wouldn't particularly rate Diers on the ball ability right now all that high, I have read on a mixed supporters board that being a recurring theme whenever Dier is discussed - though i don't expect that type of anecdotal evidence to hold much sway ...

for me Wanyama is a good solution to our lack of cover for Dier - will be cheap as he's in the last year of his contract, he knows the league, he knows our manager and importantly the defensive side of his game is very strong (arguably stronger than Dier at this point in time) i also think he'd accept not being an automatic starter for us. I think had we had him in our ranks in the season just gone we'd probably have saved many of the points we dropped from leading positions, definitely enough to finish 2nd and possibly enough for more.

Im not saying it has to be Wanyama, i just think all the factors combined make him a stand out candidate - our first choice in that position is already a young player that we are looking to develop, so having a more senior player to rotate with him doesn't go against that overall policy imo and his on the ball ability really doesn't hold him back - not in the role in which Dier plays anyway, were we still set up with two box to box types in a double pivot as we were the season previous it would be a different story and tbh im not sure Dier would cut it in that type of set up either - but in this system as Diers cover? it's a no brainer for me
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Potentially a big opportunity cost in not developing a younger player with more potential in that "backup" role to Dier instead. Trusting young players for these squad roles has worked out really well so far, I don't understand why we should stop doing it now.

If Wanyama's ability on the ball holds us back or not depends not only on how we played this season with Dier, but on how we plan to evolve our play over the next couple of years.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Thanks. In light of the answers to your first two questions are you not concerned that we would regress defensively? How do we cope with the opposition breaking, also how do we deal with defending set pieces better if replacing Dier with a player who is less physical and has less presence in defending set pieces? Why do you think Pochettino put Dier into the defensive midfield position despite already having Bentaleb at the club? Do you think that perhaps he sees that role as ideally requiring a different set of skills to those that Bentaleb possesses? (after all there is less than a year between Bentaleb and Dier and at the start of last season Bentaleb had played more PL games than Dier and many more in midfield).
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How do other teams with less physical, less defensive central/deep midfielders deal with it?

Remember Bentaleb is younger than Dier. He's not around the age Dier was last summer when no one saw him as a DM - other than Pochettino. Bentaleb started the season next to Dier, but started poorly and then had his injury issues. I don't think we can read too much into what Pochettino prefers based on that.

Grays_1890 said:
Dier being replaced being discussed? Behave, this bloke is in what, his first real season in this role and has mastered it. Give him a break, at his age he could go on to be a legend and we are already replacing him.

I suppose summer is slow and we need something to discuss.
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I suppose you haven't actually read all of the posts? The conversation is about backup options to Dier, no one is suggesting we replace Dier in our first team at this point.
 
What a star. He's becoming a serious talent, with so much ahead of him. He should keep developing under Poch too. Had Ingerland won, Dier would have been over hyped. Just want him fresh for next season.
 
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Jamie Redknapp on Dier:

Eric Dier has the look of a future England captain. The way he played, the way he spoke after the game. He’s clearly a bright, well-educated boy who has benefited from playing abroad, in Portugal.

He lacks experience and didn’t play in any of the qualifying games but he continued with England where he started with Spurs: growing into the shirt, looking the part. He is a very welcome addition to the England team and a good discovery.

There will be bigger tests to come — Gareth Bale, for starters — but I like the way Dier plays with his brain at both ends of the pitch. He played this game like he had 100 caps, not eight. His free-kick deserved to win the match in a game in which England did well, albeit against poor opposition — Russia will probably be the easiest of the three group fixtures. And, sadly, we’ve drawn 1-1 and blown an opportunity to get a start.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...changes-1-0-against-Russia.html#ixzz4BPIsmrw9
 
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