Eric Dier

[braineclipse]

I would say that Dier's passing ability has always been pretty average. I think the difference is that when Dembele is on the pitch with him he can pretty much always give it to Dembele, irrespective of how tightly he is marked and know that it is very, very unlikely that Dembele will lose the ball. He (rightly) doesn't have that same confidence in Mason to be able to receive and retain the ball.

I really don't think our DM needs to be anything other than a reasonably competent passer of the ball. That part of their game is probably the least important attribute for that role in our team. All the holding player really has to do in possession is give it out wide to one of the fullbacks or play a reasonably simple pass to one of the 5 more talented players in front of him.

Sounds a lot like the "why do we need ball playing centre backs" arguments of days before Alderweireld and Vertonghen made it a completely impossible point of view to defend.

If we want to continue improving and join the truly elite teams "reasonably competent passer of the ball" is below what we need for our DM.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sounds a lot like the "why do we need ball playing centre backs" arguments of days before Alderweireld and Vertonghen made it a completely impossible point of view to defend.

If we want to continue improving and join the truly elite teams "reasonably competent passer of the ball" is below what we need for our DM.

In that case Dier is another player that we need to upgrade on this summer.

 

[FatBloke]

Sounds a lot like the "why do we need ball playing centre backs" arguments of days before Alderweireld and Vertonghen made it a completely impossible point of view to defend.

If we want to continue improving and join the truly elite teams "reasonably competent passer of the ball" is below what we need for our DM.

In that case Dier is another player that we need to upgrade on this summer.

While an upgrade on Dier would be welcome, if we could find one (and I'm not sure we can), I don't see it as a priority.

For me, a DM should be a tackler and interceptor first, with excellent positional sense -- primarily defensive, and able to shield the defence. A basic competent DM should be able to distribute the ball competently -- I'm not expecting him to play high-risk wonder-passes that unlock defences. That's a bonus, of course, but my "bedrock" DM would be more of a Carrick -- looking to play short quick passes to the players around him, turning bad balls into good ones. A pass that sets off Dembele for a dribble, or gives Eriksen that extra split second to evaluate his options. Either way, he should have an extremely high pass completion percentage.

I do think we need a better backup for Dier. No idea whether that's Winks or someone else entirely. Or perhaps we don't have a direct replacement but instead work better on a double-pivot against some sides. But we do need a Plan B to rest our square-headed artichoke-loving Eric.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Beckham meets his hero

 

[braineclipse]

In that case Dier is another player that we need to upgrade on this summer.

That quite simply does not follow from what I said.

While an upgrade on Dier would be welcome, if we could find one (and I'm not sure we can), I don't see it as a priority.

For me, a DM should be a tackler and interceptor first, with excellent positional sense -- primarily defensive, and able to shield the defence. A basic competent DM should be able to distribute the ball competently -- I'm not expecting him to play high-risk wonder-passes that unlock defences. That's a bonus, of course, but my "bedrock" DM would be more of a Carrick -- looking to play short quick passes to the players around him, turning bad balls into good ones. A pass that sets off Dembele for a dribble, or gives Eriksen that extra split second to evaluate his options. Either way, he should have an extremely high pass completion percentage.

I do think we need a better backup for Dier. No idea whether that's Winks or someone else entirely. Or perhaps we don't have a direct replacement but instead work better on a double-pivot against some sides. But we do need a Plan B to rest our square-headed artichoke-loving Eric.

For me Carrick is the English deep midfielder/DM most removed from the "should be a tackler and interceptor first" mentality since... I genuinely don't know. He was good defensively for sure, but his ability on the ball was what made him a stand out player. And the English mentality of "a DM should be a tackler and interceptor first" is what made him one of the more underrated players of his generation. All imo of course.

Interestingly Carrick didn't really find his role and really get going in England until he was 23-24. Worth remembering with some of our talented young players whose strengths on the ball might be what makes them stand out players in the future.

 

[Finney Is Back]

That quite simply does not follow from what I said.

You said: "If we want to continue improving and join the truly elite teams "reasonably competent passer of the ball" is below what we need for our DM."

Hence my comment that in that case we also need to upgrade Dier this summer, I think it therefore does follow on from what you said?

Or perhaps you rate Dier as a very good passer of the ball? I would say that his passing ability is well down the list of his best attributes and the description of 'a reasonably competent passer of the ball' probably is bang on.

Another description might be "A pretty good passer of the ball for a centre half".

 

[braineclipse]

You said: "If we want to continue improving and join the truly elite teams "reasonably competent passer of the ball" is below what we need for our DM."

Hence my comment that in that case we also need to upgrade Dier this summer, I think it therefore does follow on from what you said?

Or perhaps you rate Dier as a very good passer of the ball? I would say that his passing ability is well down the list of his best attributes and the description of 'a reasonably competent passer of the ball' probably is bang on.

Another description might be "A pretty good passer of the ball for a centre half".

I don't think us joining the truly elite teams next season is realistic or a target we should use as the basis of this summer's transfer dealings.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think us joining the truly elite teams next season is realistic or a target we should use as the basis of this summer's transfer dealings.

Now I'm confused.... So do we want to stick with a player like Dier or do we want to try to join the truly elite teams? Do you want to upgrade on Dier by swapping him for a play maker or do you want to carry on playing the same style and formation to the one we did last season?

 

[braineclipse]

Now I'm confused.... So do we want to stick with a player like Dier or do we want to try to join the truly elite teams? Do you want to upgrade on Dier by swapping him for a play maker or do you want to carry on playing the same style and formation to the one we did last season?

I think us joining the truly elite teams is, at best, a process that will take some time. An undue short term focused approach for this transfer window is more likely to hinder that process than help it as it's unrealistic and will most likely lead to failed signings.

The way we join the top clubs is through continued good long term work (along with short term of course) and through continued player development and youth focus. Perhaps Dier can up his game on the ball to the point where he does get good enough. Perhaps Bentaleb can return with a bang and long term become the player both I and others though and think he has the potential to become. Perhaps a talented signing can be made this season that 1, 2 or 3 years down the line can start looking like the kind of player we're talking about.

But for me we cannot sign that player right now so we shouldn't try to. And we shouldn't try to sign whatever 25 year or older £25m+ next best thing we can actually sign either. We should continue to do what we've done so well so far. Develop players with loads of talent into our system.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Dier was comfortably the best defensive midfielder in the league last season

He also has had the best passing stats for England in most of the games he has played

His role isn't about 40 yard pin point passes, Ita bout stopping the opposition passing and for me he has been a revelation

What we do need is a back up player for him

 

[parklane1]

Dier was comfortably the best defensive midfielder in the league last season

He also has had the best passing stats for England in most of the games he has played

His role isn't about 40 yard pin point passes, Ita bout stopping the opposition passing and for me he has been a revelation

What we do need is a back up player for him

My thoughts as well, all this talk about being a good, poor, average passer of the ball is not that important( in other words its gonad*s) . It was obvious to most that after the debacle of having a CM of Mason and Bentaleb overrun in most games we needed someone to play as a DM and use the strengths that a DM should have. Dier has ticked all the boxes and not only has he done it for us he is first choice for England ( after just one season of doing the job).

Its true what they say about some football fans.

 

[braineclipse]

Dier was comfortably the best defensive midfielder in the league last season

He also has had the best passing stats for England in most of the games he has played

His role isn't about 40 yard pin point passes, Ita bout stopping the opposition passing and for me he has been a revelation

What we do need is a back up player for him

Passing stats in isolation are not particularly informative.

My thoughts as well, all this talk about being a good, poor, average passer of the ball is not that important( in other words its cobblers) . It was obvious to most that after the debacle of having a CM of Mason and Bentaleb overrun in most games we needed someone to play as a DM and use the strengths that a DM should have. Dier has ticked all the boxes and not only has he done it for us he is first choice for England ( after just one season of doing the job).

Its true what they say about some football fans.

Like I said. Just like the why do we need ball playing centre backs arguments...

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think us joining the truly elite teams is, at best, a process that will take some time. An undue short term focused approach for this transfer window is more likely to hinder that process than help it as it's unrealistic and will most likely lead to failed signings.

The way we join the top clubs is through continued good long term work (along with short term of course) and through continued player development and youth focus. Perhaps Dier can up his game on the ball to the point where he does get good enough. Perhaps Bentaleb can return with a bang and long term become the player both I and others though and think he has the potential to become. Perhaps a talented signing can be made this season that 1, 2 or 3 years down the line can start looking like the kind of player we're talking about.

But for me we cannot sign that player right now so we shouldn't try to. And we shouldn't try to sign whatever 25 year or older £25m+ next best thing we can actually sign either. We should continue to do what we've done so well so far. Develop players with loads of talent into our system.

I would argue that to join the elite clubs we need to:
a) qualify for the Champions League regularly.
b) win some trophies.

Achieving a) makes b) easier.

The above things result in higher exposure and more money coming in, which allows a higher transfer budget and higher wage bill to be operated, which of course increase the chances of qualifying for the CL and winning trophies.

I don't think Dier is ever going to become a 'playmaker', I think he is likely to get better in the DM role as he gains experience, but I don't think he is going to transform the way that he plays, he hasn't got that touch or vision that playmakers possess and those two attributes do not tend to be developed at this stage of a players career.

It is brilliant that Dier is likely to get better, but it doesn't help us one bit if he is injured, suspended or needs a rest. The question is therefore what happens when this scenario occurs. Do we change the way that the whole team plays to accommodate a different type of player or do we slot in a player who is clone? I would prefer to opt for the latter option. If we have a set way of playing (as we do), then one would assume that it is the way that the manager feels is the best way for us to get results. A different type of option is great to use off the bench if needing to change a game, but surely you would advocate having players that allow the entire team to play in the way that they are comfortable?

You say no 25 year old players for £25 million plus - what about 24 year olds for £15 million? Or 23 year olds for £20 million?... What is the cut off point and why is there the need for one at all?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Passing stats in isolation are not particularly informative.

Like I said. Just like the why do we need ball playing centre backs arguments...

I agree with your first point, although in this case they do at least indicate that this suggestion that Wanyama cannot pass and always gives the ball away isn't one that is born out of any truth. Granted Wanyama could be a Capoue type of player who has fantastic pass completion stats because he plays 50 pointless one-twos with his center halves in every game when under no pressure, but I really didn't see Southampton as being one of those possession for possessions sake type team last year, instead of that I thought they seemed to play with a purpose to get the ball forward quite quickly.

Re: Ball playing centre backs, we need them because it is how we start our attacks. When Lloris has the ball, Vertonghen and Alderweireld split and Dier drops in to give Lloris 3 passing options. The opposition either have to commit an extra couple of men forward to cover them (leaving themselves light further up the pitch if Lloris goes long and we pick up the second ball) or they keep their shape and we get free possession every time Lloris gets the ball. If we played similar tactics to a team like (e.g.) Leicester, then centre halves being good on the ball would be well down the list of requirements as we would be sitting deep, looking to invite the opposition on to us and then play it long and quickly as soon as we won possession.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

So if I am reading this thread right some of you think we should get an upgrade on Dier because he is not a good enough defensive midfielder for us to become a top team? The mind truly boggles, it really does.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Is fecking love an upgrade on Dier as it would be a hell of a signing... Alas I don't think that kind of player (whoever it is) is in our reach

We do need cover for Dier though and if it's someone good enough to compete with him for a start then brilliant

We need the back 4 and central 2 to be like for like where possible IMO as is the basis for our system

The true attacking players we need variety in and genuine game changing alternatives.

You could argue a true passing play maker that could come into the middle two could help but that IMO would have a knock on to other positions too much - although a quality player there would be nice. Poch has moved eriksen there at times to kinda do that role so it's something he sees as relevant IMO

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think thats what is being suggested Naija - I think it's just a spill over from the Wanyama debate and that Finney Is just saying that if Wanyama isn't good enough on the ball for us then neither is Dier (awhich I think is fair as some are over rating Diers ability on the ball whilst under rating Wanyama at the same time - when IMO they are fairly even in that regard

 

[Finney Is Back]

I don't think thats what is being suggested Naija - I think it's just a spill over from the Wanyama debate and that Finney Is just saying that if Wanyama isn't good enough on the ball for us then neither is Dier (awhich I think is fair as some are over rating Diers ability on the ball whilst under rating Wanyama at the same time - when IMO they are fairly even in that regard

Spot on mate. That is exactly the point that I am trying to make.

 

[braineclipse]

I would argue that to join the elite clubs we need to:
a) qualify for the Champions League regularly.
b) win some trophies.

Achieving a) makes b) easier.

The above things result in higher exposure and more money coming in, which allows a higher transfer budget and higher wage bill to be operated, which of course increase the chances of qualifying for the CL and winning trophies.

I don't think Dier is ever going to become a 'playmaker', I think he is likely to get better in the DM role as he gains experience, but I don't think he is going to transform the way that he plays, he hasn't got that touch or vision that playmakers possess and those two attributes do not tend to be developed at this stage of a players career.

It is brilliant that Dier is likely to get better, but it doesn't help us one bit if he is injured, suspended or needs a rest. The question is therefore what happens when this scenario occurs. Do we change the way that the whole team plays to accommodate a different type of player or do we slot in a player who is clone? I would prefer to opt for the latter option. If we have a set way of playing (as we do), then one would assume that it is the way that the manager feels is the best way for us to get results. A different type of option is great to use off the bench if needing to change a game, but surely you would advocate having players that allow the entire team to play in the way that they are comfortable?

You say no 25 year old players for £25 million plus - what about 24 year olds for £15 million? Or 23 year olds for £20 million?... What is the cut off point and why is there the need for one at all?

There's no strict cut off of course. Just a preference for those at one end of the spectrum.

I was talking slightly higher than that as truly elite clubs.

I agree with your first point, although in this case they do at least indicate that this suggestion that Wanyama cannot pass and always gives the ball away isn't one that is born out of any truth. Granted Wanyama could be a Capoue type of player who has fantastic pass completion stats because he plays 50 pointless one-twos with his center halves in every game when under no pressure, but I really didn't see Southampton as being one of those possession for possessions sake type team last year, instead of that I thought they seemed to play with a purpose to get the ball forward quite quickly.

Re: Ball playing centre backs, we need them because it is how we start our attacks. When Lloris has the ball, Vertonghen and Alderweireld split and Dier drops in to give Lloris 3 passing options. The opposition either have to commit an extra couple of men forward to cover them (leaving themselves light further up the pitch if Lloris goes long and we pick up the second ball) or they keep their shape and we get free possession every time Lloris gets the ball. If we played similar tactics to a team like (e.g.) Leicester, then centre halves being good on the ball would be well down the list of requirements as we would be sitting deep, looking to invite the opposition on to us and then play it long and quickly as soon as we won possession.

Not sure I've suggested that Wanyama cannot pass and always gives the ball away... I think you might be arguing either against no one, or against just one poster in this case.

Of course if we played the style of Leicester this would be a completely different conversation. We don't though and I don't want us to. But the conversation kept going on about ball playing centre backs with quite a few of us being for it and others saying centre backs should only really be about defending. Now that we actually have two really good ball playing centre backs that conversation has disappeared because the advantages are clear to see. Just like the "what's the point of a deep playmaker" conversation largely disappeared once the "Michael Carrick, what does he do" people saw what was bleeding obvious. Just like even the most ardent Modric critic eventually realized just what he brought to the club. If at some point Dier is upgraded on or replaced by a better ball playing deep midfielder (not saying it will or must happen) I think similarly the DM only needs to do this or that conversation will disappear (for a while).

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think thats what is being suggested Naija - I think it's just a spill over from the Wanyama debate and that Finney Is just saying that if Wanyama isn't good enough on the ball for us then neither is Dier (awhich I think is fair as some are over rating Diers ability on the ball whilst under rating Wanyama at the same time - when IMO they are fairly even in that regard

I really do think Dier has shown more promise on the ball than Wanyama. Earlier this season he did accept playing with some risk and he showed good skill on the ball as well as a good repertoire of passing. He seemed to grow timid towards the last couple of months of the season with pressure building and increasingly kept it very simple. I hope going into next season with more experience he will once again accept more responsibility on the ball.

Dier is just 22 and just finished his first season playing in midfield. Wanyama will be 25 this summer. I think there's more room for Dier to improve in this regard than there is for Wanyama.