Emerson Royal

[parklane1]

Let's suppose for a minute, that's the game here. Does Conte seem like the kind of person that'll go "Well I better listen to the thousands of people telling me what to do"? Do those fans realise that they have a manager who has 40 years' experience at the top of European football as a player and manager and is more qualified than anyone else in the stadium to make those decisions.

Yeah we all have an opinion, I'd start Doherty personally, but the once-bald, jumpy Italian in the dugout has forgotten more about the game than I'll ever know and Levy is paying him millions to manage the team. My role at the game is to support the team not tell him how to do his job (and yes I know we all leave out a "for f**k sake" at a game as a knee jerk reaction - my problem is with booing or targeting a player rather than that). Expressing negative opinions after the game in the pub or on here is fine but booing players is just counter productive.

This.

I did say it was 'my' view mate. I don't believe I have ever said 'never say anything bad ever', indeed, even in the post you're referring to I say that we all have a moan or 'jesus christ' after a mistake or if someone is having a poor game. Of course players have to have thick skins, and they do. I stand by my disgust at people who endlessly boo players for mistakes/not playing well. Unless said player is not trying, or purposely taking the tinkle somehow. That becomes a different story. And no, I am not suggesting we turn football into the opera, just that clams who turn up at stadiums thinking they can just scream abuse at players/forget they are not behind a keyboard, can (in my frankly not 'high-horsey' way) do one!

And this.

 

[braineclipse]

So you know the absolute best way to enjoy the football, and people who do it differently to you should do one? Righty o then.

That's nowhere near what steff actually said.

 

[spurspinter1]

That's nowhere near what steff actually said.

"clams who turn up at stadiums thinking they can just scream abuse at players/forget they are not behind a keyboard, can (in my frankly not 'high-horsey' way) do one!"

My take is an intentional exaggeration in a sense but true in reference to those "screaming abuse at players", and the grey area will be what constitutes abuse. Is any form of abuse permitted legally? If not,then Steff (or whoever) should report it to the authorities.

I am still getting this vibe of "I am morally superior to those heathens having the audacity to show their emotions", maybe the way I'm phrasing my interpretations isn't helpful and is setting people on the defensive or maybe I have lost the plot on this one altogether.

People should ideally support their club with love, joy and kindness, but they are allowed to bitch and moan if they prefer. And moaning about fans is as unproductive as moaning about players (yes I guess I am moaning about fans moaning about fans etc etc)

 

[harr1984]

"clams who turn up at stadiums thinking they can just scream abuse at players/forget they are not behind a keyboard, can (in my frankly not 'high-horsey' way) do one!"

My take is an intentional exaggeration in a sense but true in reference to those "screaming abuse at players", and the grey area will be what constitutes abuse. Is any form of abuse permitted legally? If not,then Steff (or whoever) should report it to the authorities.

I am still getting this vibe of "I am morally superior to those heathens having the audacity to show their emotions", maybe the way I'm phrasing my interpretations isn't helpful and is setting people on the defensive or maybe I have lost the plot on this one altogether.

People should ideally support their club with love, joy and kindness, but they are allowed to bitch and moan if they prefer. And moaning about fans is as unproductive as moaning about players (yes I guess I am moaning about fans moaning about fans etc etc)

I don’t think this bit is disputed mate, and I’m pretty sure there isn’t a fan out there who doesn’t bitch and moan about their club! But there are ways and means of doing it. Many people make noises of disgust at a football stadium that are simply not natural and are pre meditated for whatever reason - I don’t know if it’s stress in these peoples lives and they feel like this is the place to release it but none of it is helpful. Bitch and moan all you want about players on here, bitch to the guy next to you about a poor piece of play that’s just happened. Boo at half time or full time if you have to even though I don’t like it. But constantly getting on a specific players back, and hurling abuse at said player is the exact opposite of what support is. I am still yet to hear a single reason as to why it’s acceptable to abuse an individual player of your team, or even more so one way in which doing this benefits the team in any way. It’s simply cringeworthy to listen to, and I really don’t understand the mindset of people that participate…..

 

[DeanoAustin]

"clams who turn up at stadiums thinking they can just scream abuse at players/forget they are not behind a keyboard, can (in my frankly not 'high-horsey' way) do one!"

My take is an intentional exaggeration in a sense but true in reference to those "screaming abuse at players", and the grey area will be what constitutes abuse. Is any form of abuse permitted legally? If not,then Steff (or whoever) should report it to the authorities.

I am still getting this vibe of "I am morally superior to those heathens having the audacity to show their emotions", maybe the way I'm phrasing my interpretations isn't helpful and is setting people on the defensive or maybe I have lost the plot on this one altogether.

People should ideally support their club with love, joy and kindness, but they are allowed to bitch and moan if they prefer. And moaning about fans is as unproductive as moaning about players (yes I guess I am moaning about fans moaning about fans etc etc)

It's this simple for me. We all have one thing in common - we want to see Spurs do well.

In my opinion, booing a player or abusing a player rarely makes them play better and in many instances makes them play worse. Now, you can say "they're pros, the should be able to handle it" but they're also human. Humans usually do their jobs better with encouragement rather than abuse. Therefore, booing and abuse is more likely to result in Spurs doing badly. And no one who supports this club wants to see that. It's counter productive.

 

[braineclipse]

"clams who turn up at stadiums thinking they can just scream abuse at players/forget they are not behind a keyboard, can (in my frankly not 'high-horsey' way) do one!"

My take is an intentional exaggeration in a sense but true in reference to those "screaming abuse at players", and the grey area will be what constitutes abuse. Is any form of abuse permitted legally? If not,then Steff (or whoever) should report it to the authorities.

I am still getting this vibe of "I am morally superior to those heathens having the audacity to show their emotions", maybe the way I'm phrasing my interpretations isn't helpful and is setting people on the defensive or maybe I have lost the plot on this one altogether.

People should ideally support their club with love, joy and kindness, but they are allowed to bitch and moan if they prefer. And moaning about fans is as unproductive as moaning about players (yes I guess I am moaning about fans moaning about fans etc etc)

Again, "audacity to show emotions", steff and others have made it explicitly clear that they support this. Just some expressions of that being reacted to.

I don't know mate. We're talking about other people doing things we don't like or do ourselves. It's a difficult thing to do without vibes of "moral superiority". Particularly if speaking directly.

If one objects to what booing an individual player frequently. Shouting abuse (not illegal abuse, but what most reasonable people would see as abuse) at individuals frequently. Is there a way of voicing that objection?

 

[thfcsteff]

I don’t think this bit is disputed mate, and I’m pretty sure there isn’t a fan out there who doesn’t bitch and moan about their club! But there are ways and means of doing it. Many people make noises of disgust at a football stadium that are simply not natural and are pre meditated for whatever reason - I don’t know if it’s stress in these peoples lives and they feel like this is the place to release it but none of it is helpful. Bitch and moan all you want about players on here, bitch to the guy next to you about a poor piece of play that’s just happened. Boo at half time or full time if you have to even though I don’t like it. But constantly getting on a specific players back, and hurling abuse at said player is the exact opposite of what support is. I am still yet to hear a single reason as to why it’s acceptable to abuse an individual player of your team, or even more so one way in which doing this benefits the team in any way. It’s simply cringeworthy to listen to, and I really don’t understand the mindset of people that participate…..

This all the way. The notion that I am not into emotion within a stadium is rich. Anyone who knows me is aware I have an array of handbags for all occasions, lyrics for belting out in the away end concourses on travels and a voice for all moments.

 

[Daisuk]

I don’t think this bit is disputed mate, and I’m pretty sure there isn’t a fan out there who doesn’t bitch and moan about their club! But there are ways and means of doing it. Many people make noises of disgust at a football stadium that are simply not natural and are pre meditated for whatever reason - I don’t know if it’s stress in these peoples lives and they feel like this is the place to release it but none of it is helpful. Bitch and moan all you want about players on here, bitch to the guy next to you about a poor piece of play that’s just happened. Boo at half time or full time if you have to even though I don’t like it. But constantly getting on a specific players back, and hurling abuse at said player is the exact opposite of what support is. I am still yet to hear a single reason as to why it’s acceptable to abuse an individual player of your team, or even more so one way in which doing this benefits the team in any way. It’s simply cringeworthy to listen to, and I really don’t understand the mindset of people that participate…..

Yes. This. 100%.

 

[spurspinter1]

I don’t think this bit is disputed mate, and I’m pretty sure there isn’t a fan out there who doesn’t bitch and moan about their club! But there are ways and means of doing it. Many people make noises of disgust at a football stadium that are simply not natural and are pre meditated for whatever reason - I don’t know if it’s stress in these peoples lives and they feel like this is the place to release it but none of it is helpful. Bitch and moan all you want about players on here, bitch to the guy next to you about a poor piece of play that’s just happened. Boo at half time or full time if you have to even though I don’t like it. But constantly getting on a specific players back, and hurling abuse at said player is the exact opposite of what support is. I am still yet to hear a single reason as to why it’s acceptable to abuse an individual player of your team, or even more so one way in which doing this benefits the team in any way. It’s simply cringeworthy to listen to, and I really don’t understand the mindset of people that participate…..

All makes sense what you've posted bud, I've not claimed booing or shouting some advice to Royal like "Learn to f***ing cross you ****" is actually helpful, obviously one hopes the coaching staff is already doing what they can.

I'm going to guess that everyone will draw their own line in the sand of what constitutes abuse rather than a reasonable emotional reaction and in the same way no one has explicitly said "Don't display negative emotions at the match", I haven't seen anyone saying "It's totally fine to abuse players".

 

[spurspinter1]

This all the way. The notion that I am not into emotion within a stadium is rich. Anyone who knows me is aware I have an array of handbags for all occasions, lyrics for belting out in the away end concourses on travels and a voice for all moments.

If that's a notion you've picked up from me then I evidently haven't been clear enough.

I admire your positivity, I just don't share it but would defend your right to express it to the death. There's also going to be Waldorf and Statler types who sit there chipping away at players, as long as it doesn't verge on abuse then it's just a different way to take in the game, it's the yin to the yang and it is a part of football and life.

 

[spurspinter1]

Again, "audacity to show emotions", steff and others have made it explicitly clear that they support this. Just some expressions of that being reacted to.

I don't know mate. We're talking about other people doing things we don't like or do ourselves. It's a difficult thing to do without vibes of "moral superiority". Particularly if speaking directly.


If one objects to what booing an individual player frequently. Shouting abuse (not illegal abuse, but what most reasonable people would see as abuse) at individuals frequently. Is there a way of voicing that objection?

I should have stated "The audacity to show negative emotions", that's my bad for not being precise enough with vocab as it's then easy to argue against a point I am not making. Some people given the authority may chose to ban booing (or shouting mean things at players) as it's not helpful, I see that as the potential first step to the equilibrium*

You are absolutely correct on the second paragraph. People having a grumble at a football game doesn't affect me like it does others but if I see someone littering in public I make a habit of dressing them down for it, I'm very happy to admit that's a holier than thou attitude where I'm walking around thinking I know best.

Apologies though maybe as the brain hasn't got working just yet this morning but I do not understand the last paragraph so am hesitant to attempt to answer the question.

*insert other dystopian fictional work of human expression being stamped down upon here according to taste

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Love and respect ya views and thoughts Steff but finding how "simple" this subject is, is a bit high horse-y for me, there is a discussion to be had but if people just want to repeat how simple it is whilst assuming their view is the only way and not explore the themes around it, I will gracefully bow out of the discussion after this one.

People should be allowed to speak their truth within reason, whether it's positive or negative and the tribalism or animosity in this case obviously can go too far but do we want the same atmosphere you'd get at a classical concert at a football game?

I have been pretty clear throughout that I don't condone abuse of players, but the "I best not say anything negative as they're trying their best" is such an ominous route to go down, these are professional football players, not your son / daughter on a Sunday morning in the park. Next we can get everyone muzzled up and give the stewards signs with "Clap now but only if it's not a sarcastic form of clapping".

Of course some fans are taking their real life problems out on the players and it's not healthy or positive, and like you say some go in with premeditated thoughts that they wait to be validated so they can go ape brick at certain players they have an agenda against, none of this is surprising as it's human nature, but it's a case of getting rid of the baby with the bathwater or just not letting it get to you, if you asked Royal hypothetically that the abuse could disappear but the money also would, I'd guess he'd take the 80 k p/w and the bunch of fat middle aged moany Spurs fans yelling things about his crossing ability (that he himself knows isn't good enough).

The other obvious facilitator to ones behaviour is, drink has been taken (plus undoubtedly some of Columbians finest as well)....and people are a little looser with their tongues and neural pathways under the influence.

Interestingly though, to counter my own point, although all the above applies (probably even moreso), the away crowd do appear to be more tolerant generally supportive. So.....?

 

[braineclipse]

I should have stated "The audacity to show negative emotions", that's my bad for not being precise enough with vocab as it's then easy to argue against a point I am not making. Some people given the authority may chose to ban booing (or shouting mean things at players) as it's not helpful, I see that as the potential first step to the equilibrium*

You are absolutely correct on the second paragraph. People having a grumble at a football game doesn't affect me like it does others but if I see someone littering in public I make a habit of dressing them down for it, I'm very happy to admit that's a holier than thou attitude where I'm walking around thinking I know best.

Apologies though maybe as the brain hasn't got working just yet this morning but I do not understand the last paragraph so am hesitant to attempt to answer the question.

*insert other dystopian fictional work of human expression being stamped down upon here according to taste

I don't think people are arguing against showing negative emotions. Just some expressions of that.

My point in the last sentence is when people feel that booing specific players frequently is something they would rather not see happening. Like steff, myself, others on here. Is there a way of expressing that you would find acceptable? I know steff used fairly direct, even harsh terms, you reacted to that. If one does it more carefully, just pointing out "I don't like this, I think this is bad". Is that OK?

I don't quite get the dystopian point. Nothing posted on here is at all in a "stamp down human expression" direction for me.

 

[Grays_1890]

I don't think people are arguing against showing negative emotions. Just some expressions of that.

My point in the last sentence is when people feel that booing specific players frequently is something they would rather not see happening. Like steff, myself, others on here. Is there a way of expressing that you would find acceptable? I know steff used fairly direct, even harsh terms, you reacted to that. If one does it more carefully, just pointing out "I don't like this, I think this is bad". Is that OK?

I don't quite get the dystopian point. Nothing posted on here is at all in a "stamp down human expression" direction for me.

I've been very clear that booing of players is ridiculous, I want to make that clear, however the moaning and groaning based on missed placed passes, mistakes or missing of open goals is and always has been part and parcel of the game.

It's an overly romantic and somewhat cotton wool'd view, in my opinion, to believe that players should not have to deal with some of that, I mean this is top level sport, the pinnacle of the profession, the idea that there is not some adversity in the game be it the physical or, within reason, mental is bordering naive. Again I'm not saying booing but if people are saying players are too soft to hear moans and groans then I would say they may need to harder up.

Also I would maybe agree more, actually I would agree more in the 70s and 80s when loyalty and long term was a thing in the game, be it managers or players, where your loyalty through the rough was rewarded based on longevity, but the games much more transactional now, the players use clubs and fans much more than the other way, so patience is not once what it was and why should it be? If a player is here for 2/3 years maybe playing under 2 managers then there is going to be and there should be alot more pressures on them to perform than 20/30 years ago.

We may not like it, there are parts I don't like about it that we have to pay up and lump as part of the modern game, unfortunately the players have to also, it comes with the power and money they have

 

[braineclipse]

I've been very clear that booing of players is ridiculous, I want to make that clear, however the moaning and groaning based on missed placed passes, mistakes or missing of open goals is and always has been part and parcel of the game.

It's an overly romantic and somewhat cotton wool'd view, in my opinion, to believe that players should not have to deal with some of that, I mean this is top level sport, the pinnacle of the profession, the idea that there is not some adversity in the game be it the physical or, within reason, mental is bordering naive. Again I'm not saying booing but if people are saying players are too soft to hear moans and groans then I would say they may need to harder up.

Also I would maybe agree more, actually I would agree more in the 70s and 80s when loyalty and long term was a thing in the game, be it managers or players, where your loyalty through the rough was rewarded based on longevity, but the games much more transactional now, the players use clubs and fans much more than the other way, so patience is not once what it was and why should it be? If a player is here for 2/3 years maybe playing under 2 managers then there is going to be and there should be alot more pressures on them to perform than 20/30 years ago.

We may not like it, there are parts I don't like about it that we have to pay up and lump as part of the modern game, unfortunately the players have to also, it comes with the power and money they have

I agree that "the moaning and groaning based on missed placed passes, mistakes or missing of open goals" is part and parcel of the game.

I agree it's "an overly romantic and somewhat cotton wool'd view, in my opinion, to believe that players should not have to deal with some of that".

That's why I haven't voiced any disagreement with that. Neither has other posters from what I've seen. But perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough on that. Hopefully this makes me views clearer.

 

[Grays_1890]

I agree that "the moaning and groaning based on missed placed passes, mistakes or missing of open goals" is part and parcel of the game.

I agree it's "an overly romantic and somewhat cotton wool'd view, in my opinion, to believe that players should not have to deal with some of that".

That's why I haven't voiced any disagreement with that. Neither has other posters from what I've seen. But perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough on that. Hopefully this makes me views clearer.

And TBH it wasn't aimed at you and your views, just felt it was a natural post to progress the convo so apologies if not clear there.

 

[thfcsteff]

If that's a notion you've picked up from me then I evidently haven't been clear enough.

I admire your positivity, I just don't share it but would defend your right to express it to the death. There's also going to be Waldorf and Statler types who sit there chipping away at players, as long as it doesn't verge on abuse then it's just a different way to take in the game, it's the yin to the yang and it is a part of football and life.

No, you’ve been clear. You think I am trying to claim some moral high-ground, that I am sitting atop a large steed looking down at anyone grumbling about a performance and saying, “Ahoy, you there peasant, reel yourself in and behave with nothing but company line cheer and bonhomie!’…well, something like that anyway (I might have slightly exaggerated, for effect only )…I have repeatedly explained this is not the case at all (anyone sitting near me knows my thoughts on Sess!).

I am not talking about ‘chipping away at players’ I am talking about hurling abuse at them. I will give you an example. In Nottingham two weeks ago, I was two rows away from someone who -when Dier came over to applaud the fans for going and seeing the brickshow- decided to double-down on his tedious stream of grumbling, up the volume considerably, and blame Dier for everything, from the result, to the season, to most likely global warming, all the while with liberal ‘f**king c**t’s thrown in. Despite the awful performance (and several grumbles about Sess), I was in quite a relaxed mood all told. When this absolute macaron decided to go nuclear, it was an affront. I did NOT support his ‘right to express’ himself mate, I supported MY right to call him out on it. Who knows? Maybe he was having a bad day. Perhaps he’d suffered some horrible news. Perhaps he was amidst some terrible stuff. We all have a story, I don’t think many of us don’t have some serious things going on in our lives. It doesn’t give people the right to hurl that sort of vile abuse at anyone, let alone players, who aren’t doing anything to deserve it. Same goes for racists or homophobes. These plankton need to be stood up to. Always. In my opinion. If nothing else, I don’t want to have to hear their loud, incessant brick in my ears at matches! Like people who insist on talking on their phones in movies, or people hold loud phone conversations on packed public transport, or drunks getting in your face, these are all things that I personally don’t want to deal with. I don’t believe I am alone. I feel sure you agree with me!

BTW, I did note your Kafka-esque take in another post, and want to make it very clear that I am firmly on your side of the fence, I am not interested in a sterile matchday becoming a mandated condition.

 

[thfcsteff]

I've been very clear that booing of players is ridiculous, I want to make that clear, however the moaning and groaning based on missed placed passes, mistakes or missing of open goals is and always has been part and parcel of the game.

It's an overly romantic and somewhat cotton wool'd view, in my opinion, to believe that players should not have to deal with some of that, I mean this is top level sport, the pinnacle of the profession, the idea that there is not some adversity in the game be it the physical or, within reason, mental is bordering naive. Again I'm not saying booing but if people are saying players are too soft to hear moans and groans then I would say they may need to harder up.

Also I would maybe agree more, actually I would agree more in the 70s and 80s when loyalty and long term was a thing in the game, be it managers or players, where your loyalty through the rough was rewarded based on longevity, but the games much more transactional now, the players use clubs and fans much more than the other way, so patience is not once what it was and why should it be? If a player is here for 2/3 years maybe playing under 2 managers then there is going to be and there should be alot more pressures on them to perform than 20/30 years ago.

We may not like it, there are parts I don't like about it that we have to pay up and lump as part of the modern game, unfortunately the players have to also, it comes with the power and money they have

I will reply to this too as I feel part of this conversation has come about because of what I have posted.

Let me first of all say that I don’t think this was initially a conversation about naivety in wishing criticism never happened in the modern world, let alone football, and certainly hope/trust you were not insinuating that was a POV I was espousing. Criticism, when fair, is wholly appropriate. I have often dispensed criticism in my career, however with it come standards. Standards which demands you support your criticisms with observations. I think any of us who spend our hard earned money going to games have criticized players, indeed, got frustrated. So there are no arguments there.

Where I differ with you is on the whole ‘they have power and money’ argument. Honestly, what does that have to do with repeatedly hurling abuse at a player? Are you saying that just because of the money, a player should ‘expect’ such treatment? Does Emerson Royal deserve to be abused a couple of minutes into a match for abad touch because someone has gone into the ground already disliking him? Is it his fault he’s picked? Is it Dier’s? Do players need endless abuse to remind them of mistakes, and should they just ‘take it on the chin’ (by the way, most of them do)? Sorry mate, I cannot agree with that.

I do agree that society in general has shorter patience and more anger than ever, that many people deal with lots of brick. So do I. So do you no doubt.

Somewhere, this whole thing got spun way beyond an original point, which is that hurling abuse at footballers is unhelpful, as is booing players off the pitch. In MY opinion anyway. If some folks here find that being too soft, or perhaps to use a word you used, naive, then so be it. Hurling abuse at anyone who does not deserve it will always be off-limits for me, and if I witness it, I will always call it out.

Hopefully, the last few posts from all of us have brought some clarity to the discussion.

 

[Grays_1890]

I will reply to this too as I feel part of this conversation has come about because of what I have posted.

Let me first of all say that I don’t think this was initially a conversation about naivety in wishing criticism never happened in the modern world, let alone football, and certainly hope/trust you were not insinuating that was a POV I was espousing. Criticism, when fair, is wholly appropriate. I have often dispensed criticism in my career, however with it come standards. Standards which demands you support your criticisms with observations. I think any of us who spend our hard earned money going to games have criticized players, indeed, got frustrated. So there are no arguments there.

Were I differ with you is on the whole ‘they have power and money’ argument. Honestly, what does that have to do with repeatedly hurling abuse at a player? Are you saying that just because of the money, a player should ‘expect’ such treatment? Does Emerson Royal deserve to be abused a couple of minutes into a match for abad touch because someone has gone into the ground already disliking him? Is it his fault he’s picked? Is it Dier’s? Do players need endless abuse to remind them of mistakes, and should they just ‘take it on the chin’ (by the way, most of them do)? Sorry mate, I cannot agree with that.

I do agree that society in general has shorter patience and more anger than ever, that many people deal with lots of brick. So do I. So do you no doubt.

Somewhere, this whole thing got spun way beyond an original point, which is that hurling abuse at footballers is unhelpful, as is booing players off the pitch. In MY opinion anyway. If some folks here find that being too soft, or perhaps to use a word you used, naive, then so be it. Hurling abuse at anyone who does not deserve it will always be off-limits for me, and if I witness it, I will always call it out.

Hopefully, the last few posts from all of us have brought some clarity to the discussion.

Thanks for that, always enjoyed debates with yourself so always nice to have this platform to do so.

The only part I take exception to, because I have been clear that abuse is the line I don't agree with and never have. Where I say they have to be stronger mentally is the moan and groans of the odd miss placed pass or the odd 4/10 rating in in the paper or on a forum they read if they have been poor. Players are far too soft on criticism, they don't like it, no one does, but the money element in the game, the fact its much more professional mean there is more critique of the game and if they have been poor I don't feel sorry for a player if someone calls it. That doesn't mean I agree with a fan standing 10 yards away calling them they are brick3

Ultimately players should be held to a high standard of performance based on what they are paid, that doesn't mean abuse

 

[markysimmo]

Has he left yet ??