Christian Eriksen

[braineclipse]

The point is Liverpool knew they could cope without those players. They knew they wouldn't cope without Suarez so they didn't budge.
We equally knew we wouldn't cope without Bale….but we bent over anyway

That's either incorrect or if they knew they would cope without Alonso and Mascherano they were flat out wrong! Have they been in the CL since selling those players? Perhaps once? They've sacked Benitez, Hodgson and Daglish! First this season have they bounced back to being in the top 4 and title contenders. They were regularly in the top 4 with those players and they were title contenders once iirc.

The difference was that their heads were turned, massive offers were made, the players were pushing for a move. For Suarez that didn't happen, they didn't "hold strong" against a tide, the tide just wasn't there. Arsenal doesn't have anywhere near the same pull on players as Real Madrid and Barcelona - and they didn't offer as much money (comparable to Bale and to Alonso and Mascherano when considering the different player types).

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Suarez would've been sold had a club offered anywhere near approaching £85m though, instead they only had Arsenal offering £40m + £1. If Madrid had come in with £50-£55m I'd say he'd be playing in white right about now. Liverpool have also sold players in the past - Mascherano, Alonso, Torres ... so let's not make out that they don't sell players they don't want to. That said, I wish we'd have stood firm and kept Bale.

The way I look at it though (and the fundamental difference between the clubs) is that if Levy had been offered 40m+£1 for Suarez who would serve the first few games of the season suspended due to biting someone, and has been involved in racism accusations he would have sold him in a heartbeat. No-matter what the manager said.

Liverpool stood by their manager, who quite obviously said this guy is critical to our success, we can't let him go no-matter the money. They've reaped the benefits of that.

If we want to get where we supposedly want to be, we cannot sell any of Lloris, Sandro, Vertonghen (still think with a good manager he'll be back to what he was) or Eriksen in the next 5 years. The club needs to build a team around them and unfortunately selling them makes that very difficult.

 

[braineclipse]

The way I look at it though (and the fundamental difference between the clubs) is that if Levy had been offered 40m+£1 for Suarez who would serve the first few games of the season suspended due to biting someone, and has been involved in racism accusations he would have sold him in a heartbeat. No-matter what the manager said.

Liverpool stood by their manager, who quite obviously said this guy is critical to our success, we can't let him go no-matter the money. They've reaped the benefits of that.

You have no way of knowing that!

When offered a comparable amount (£35m-ish?) for a non-goalscoring central midfielder that was absolutely desperate to leave to a club in our league he stood firm and didn't sell. No reason to think that he would sell a goalscoring striker for only marginally more to a league rival.

You're saying that the bans and behaviour would be the changing factor? I just don't see how you can claim to know that...

Edit: And the point remains, Suarez didn't seem desperate to move to Arsenal the same way the player's we've sold seemingly have been desperate to leave. He probably would have gone if a deal was agreed, but for him it wasn't a "once in a lifetime" move the way United and Real have been for Berba, Modric and Bale and he didn't cause the type of problems that those players did.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

You have no way of knowing that!

When offered a comparable amount (£35m-ish?) for a non-goalscoring central midfielder that was absolutely desperate to leave to a club in our league he stood firm and didn't sell. No reason to think that he would sell a goalscoring striker for only marginally more to a league rival.

You're saying that the bans and behaviour would be the changing factor? I just don't see how you can claim to know that...

Edit: And the point remains, Suarez didn't seem desperate to move to Arsenal the same way the player's we've sold seemingly have been desperate to leave. He probably would have gone if a deal was agreed, but for him it wasn't a "once in a lifetime" move the way United and Real have been for Berba, Modric and Bale and he didn't cause the type of problems that those players did.

Obviously I have no way of knowing it, equally you have no way of knowing that he wouldn't :lol:

I do think Suarez would have gone to Arsenal if Liverpool had sanctioned the move. Thank GHod he didn't because they'd probably be top of the league right now if he hadn't.

You make a fair point on Modric, but I maintain that at some point Levy actually has to stand strong on our best players if he wants us to get to where he wants us to be.

Imagine you are taking over this summer, you're probably thinking to yourself that you need to add a top class Center half, left back, creative midfielder and we've got a decent chance of getting into the top four. You have a good season and miss out by a point or two. You sit down to get ready for the next season thinking, with a bit more depth in the squad we can really go for it next year.

Madrid come knocking with a big money deal for Sandro and Eriksen. You tell Levy, under no circumstance can you afford to lose these two (You know more than him about football, that's why you're the manager and he's the chairman). He sells them anyway. You are left with all the top class players you brought in minus two massive gaping holes to fill.

This cycle will continue and continue and we will continue to finish outside the top 4 until Levy puts his trust in someone to make decision based on football.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...Christian-Eriksen-could-be-set-for-Spurs-exit

why do players see us as a stepping stone

Quite baffling why anyone would read this and take it to heart. Especially coming from the Fishwrap Times.

 

[braineclipse]

Obviously I have no way of knowing it, equally you have no way of knowing that he wouldn't :lol:

I do think Suarez would have gone to Arsenal if Liverpool had sanctioned the move. Thank GHod he didn't because they'd probably be top of the league right now if he hadn't.

You make a fair point on Modric, but I maintain that at some point Levy actually has to stand strong on our best players if he wants us to get to where he wants us to be.

Imagine you are taking over this summer, you're probably thinking to yourself that you need to add a top class Center half, left back, creative midfielder and we've got a decent chance of getting into the top four. You have a good season and miss out by a point or two. You sit down to get ready for the next season thinking, with a bit more depth in the squad we can really go for it next year.

Madrid come knocking with a big money deal for Sandro and Eriksen. You tell Levy, under no circumstance can you afford to lose these two (You know more than him about football, that's why you're the manager and he's the chairman). He sells them anyway. You are left with all the top class players you brought in minus two massive gaping holes to fill.

This cycle will continue and continue and we will continue to finish outside the top 4 until Levy puts his trust in someone to make decision based on football.

The difference is that I'm not claiming that Levy would refuse the offer in a heartbeat, whereas you're claiming that he would accept it in a heartbeat. I'm discussing based on what's actually happened.

I agree that in general it should be our aim to keep our best players as long as possible. I just don't think that it's realistic to expect the club to keep players whatever the bids made and whatever the situation. This is true for the vast majority of clubs around.

I think the key for us to keep growing isn't to somehow find a way to keep players against their will. As we've seen at Arsenal (and elsewhere) in the end they'll end up with a year left on their contracts and leaving for reduced fees.

If we want to keep competing with clubs with bigger budgets than ours, as we do, the key is to make good signings - that's where we can potentially outperform bigger clubs. In keeping players against their will against the super clubs of the world, I don't think it's realistic for us to outperform bigger clubs and anyone claiming that this is what Liverpool have done are deluding themselves as I think the discussion has shown in this and other threads.

Look to Dortmund for example. They've sold Sahin (I know many don't rate him, but he was the Bundesliga player of the season in his last season there), they then sold Kagawa, then Goetze and this summer Lewandowski will move. But they've signed players, at good value mostly, that have stepped up. Lewandowski was one of them, Kagawa another, Gundogan and Reus of course. Now, Gundogan didn't immediately replace Sahin, in fact he looked far inferior at first. And Lewandowski didn't start off looking like a superstar. You can't realistically expect to replace a superstar in one transfer window, players need time to settle. But the key is to keep making those right deals when signing players, because unless you're Real, Barca, Bayern and to some extent City/Chelsea you just can't expect to keep your superstars.

 

[indianspur]

You have no way of knowing that!

When offered a comparable amount (£35m-ish?) for a non-goalscoring central midfielder that was absolutely desperate to leave to a club in our league he stood firm and didn't sell. No reason to think that he would sell a goalscoring striker for only marginally more to a league rival.

You're saying that the bans and behaviour would be the changing factor? I just don't see how you can claim to know that...

Edit: And the point remains, Suarez didn't seem desperate to move to Arsenal the same way the player's we've sold seemingly have been desperate to leave. He probably would have gone if a deal was agreed, but for him it wasn't a "once in a lifetime" move the way United and Real have been for Berba, Modric and Bale and he didn't cause the type of problems that those players did.

no-one can know for sure but this is a player who has a bad disciplinary history....i mean after the racism ban and then the Ivanovic bite and the 9 game ban anything was possible. What next, pushing over a ref and a 15-20 game ban?? attacking a fan in the crowd and a season ban??? Suarez was/is volatile, Liverpools sponsors Standard Life were disgusted by the bad image the club was gaining, other sponsors probably just as concerned. Dont you think it would have been normal for the to sit down and discuss how to handle Suarez and how to move forward??

 

[Rossi22]

The way I look at it though (and the fundamental difference between the clubs) is that if Levy had been offered 40m+£1 for Suarez who would serve the first few games of the season suspended due to biting someone, and has been involved in racism accusations he would have sold him in a heartbeat. No-matter what the manager said.

Liverpool stood by their manager, who quite obviously said this guy is critical to our success, we can't let him go no-matter the money. They've reaped the benefits of that.

If we want to get where we supposedly want to be, we cannot sell any of Lloris, Sandro, Vertonghen (still think with a good manager he'll be back to what he was) or Eriksen in the next 5 years. The club needs to build a team around them and unfortunately selling them makes that very difficult.

But that is all pure speculation. I don't recall Rodgers saying they can't sell him no matter the money, in fact I remember him saying stuff like "well if Cavani can be sold for £50m then Luis is worth at least that". I don't know why people can't see the difference between £40m and £85m.

 

[braineclipse]

no-one can know for sure but this is a player who has a bad disciplinary history....i mean after the racism ban and then the Ivanovic bite and the 9 game ban anything was possible. What next, pushing over a ref and a 15-20 game ban?? attacking a fan in the crowd and a season ban??? Suarez was/is volatile, Liverpools sponsors Standard Life were disgusted by the bad image the club was gaining, other sponsors probably just as concerned. Dont you think it would have been normal for the to sit down and discuss how to handle Suarez and how to move forward??

Look at the post I quoted. I was replying to the claim that Levy would have sold Suarez for the offer Arsenal made for him. I wasn't saying that his bans and behavior wasn't a concern or that it wasn't taken into consideration.

 

[indianspur]

Look at the post I quoted. I was replying to the claim that Levy would have sold Suarez for the offer Arsenal made for him. I wasn't saying that his bans and behavior wasn't a concern or that it wasn't taken into consideration.

i know, the 40 mill offer.......i believe Levy would have sold too

 

[Superted]

Bale was a world record deal to the club of his dreams.

No one offered Liverpool even close to the same deal and the only club that got close was a 2nd tier side.

It ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same ****in' sport.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

The difference is that I'm not claiming that Levy would refuse the offer in a heartbeat, whereas you're claiming that he would accept it in a heartbeat. I'm discussing based on what's actually happened.

I agree that in general it should be our aim to keep our best players as long as possible. I just don't think that it's realistic to expect the club to keep players whatever the bids made and whatever the situation. This is true for the vast majority of clubs around.

I think the key for us to keep growing isn't to somehow find a way to keep players against their will. As we've seen at Arsenal (and elsewhere) in the end they'll end up with a year left on their contracts and leaving for reduced fees.

If we want to keep competing with clubs with bigger budgets than ours, as we do, the key is to make good signings - that's where we can potentially outperform bigger clubs. In keeping players against their will against the super clubs of the world, I don't think it's realistic for us to outperform bigger clubs and anyone claiming that this is what Liverpool have done are deluding themselves as I think the discussion has shown in this and other threads.

Look to Dortmund for example. They've sold Sahin (I know many don't rate him, but he was the Bundesliga player of the season in his last season there), they then sold Kagawa, then Goetze and this summer Lewandowski will move. But they've signed players, at good value mostly, that have stepped up. Lewandowski was one of them, Kagawa another, Gundogan and Reus of course. Now, Gundogan didn't immediately replace Sahin, in fact he looked far inferior at first. And Lewandowski didn't start off looking like a superstar. You can't realistically expect to replace a superstar in one transfer window, players need time to settle. But the key is to keep making those right deals when signing players, because unless you're Real, Barca, Bayern and to some extent City/Chelsea you just can't expect to keep your superstars.

OK fair enough take the offer in a heartbeat was a bit of an exaggeration, I still think that he would have let him go though.

They'll only end up with one year on their contract and leaving with reduced fees if the risk of keeping them doesn't pay off. I don't mean to hark back to Suarez but it's a good example in this case. Liverpool took a risk on that happening with him, if they win the league he will almost certainly stay for at least the next couple of seasons. This allows them to bring in one or two new higher quality players with the draw of CL football and therefore increases the chance of them winning the league again.

If we had taken that risk with Bale and were currently sitting 3rd or that in the league he may have decided to stay where he is. Even if he didn't we'd have the benefit of CL football to attract a better quality of replacement.

In all honesty, I don't follow German football closely enough to comment on your Dortmund analogy, but they are the 2nd biggest club in Germany and CL regulars not in the same starting position as us.

I think I'm probably more frustrated with football in general than I am with us as a club.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

But that is all pure speculation. I don't recall Rodgers saying they can't sell him no matter the money, in fact I remember him saying stuff like "well if Cavani can be sold for £50m then Luis is worth at least that". I don't know why people can't see the difference between £40m and £85m.

I can. My point is that you never benefit from selling your best players, Liverpool being the example I used to illustrate the point.

 

[indianspur]

Bale was a world record deal to the club of his dreams.

No one offered Liverpool even close to the same deal and the only club that got close was a 2nd tier side.

It ain't the same ballpark, ain't the same league, ain't even the same ****in' sport.

thats because not many clubs were prepared to pay 40 mill or more for a racist, human biting, consistently banned, world class forward

 

[Rossi22]

I can. My point is that you never benefit from selling your best players, Liverpool being the example I used to illustrate the point.

Never? Atletico sold Falcao for £50m, they're benefiting. Roma sold Lamela and Marquinhos for £60m, they've benefited. It can be done.

 

[Rorschach]

But that is all pure speculation. I don't recall Rodgers saying they can't sell him no matter the money, in fact I remember him saying stuff like "well if Cavani can be sold for £50m then Luis is worth at least that". I don't know why people can't see the difference between £40m and £85m.

You are right. It was John Henry that put paid to the move if I recall correctly. Rodgers was already making excuses for him leaving.

I think Suarez will be off this summer anyway if a very big bid comes in. He has no loyalty to Liverpool as he has already demonstrated.

 

[indianspur]

You are right. It was John Henry that put paid to the move if I recall correctly. Rodgers was already making excuses for him leaving.

I think Suarez will be off this summer anyway if a very big bid comes in. He has no loyalty to Liverpool as he has already demonstrated.

i dont know about loyalty but he sure give 150% every time he pulls on a red shirt which is quite something for a player that supposedly cant wait to get away

 

[Rorschach]

i dont know about loyalty but he sure give 150% every time he pulls on a red shirt which is quite something for a player that supposedly cant wait to get away

He does to be fair. I seen the diving is back too but if you recall last summer he was agitating very hard for a move. Rodgers made him apologise publicly for his 'lack of respect' to the club and he was made to train alone if I remember. As soon the move to Arsenal was torpedo'd by Henry (even though there was a buy out clause) Suarez the odious little goblin turned into Suarez the repentant misunderstood flawed genius. He wasn't the in-demand commodity he thought he was, but if Real Madrid slap a massive bid on the table then he'll be pushing to move again. I have no doubt about that.

 

[braineclipse]

OK fair enough take the offer in a heartbeat was a bit of an exaggeration, I still think that he would have let him go though.

They'll only end up with one year on their contract and leaving with reduced fees if the risk of keeping them doesn't pay off. I don't mean to hark back to Suarez but it's a good example in this case. Liverpool took a risk on that happening with him, if they win the league he will almost certainly stay for at least the next couple of seasons. This allows them to bring in one or two new higher quality players with the draw of CL football and therefore increases the chance of them winning the league again.

If we had taken that risk with Bale and were currently sitting 3rd or that in the league he may have decided to stay where he is. Even if he didn't we'd have the benefit of CL football to attract a better quality of replacement.

In all honesty, I don't follow German football closely enough to comment on your Dortmund analogy, but they are the 2nd biggest club in Germany and CL regulars not in the same starting position as us.

I think I'm probably more frustrated with football in general than I am with us as a club.

You and others keep saying that Liverpool took a risk, comparing it directly to the choice made by Spurs this summer as if they're equivalent despite so many things being brought up to illustrate that they're not.

Because of their out of hand spending a decade or so back Dortmund had fallen far from their "2nd biggest club in Germany" position and weren't CL regulars at all when Klopp took over. In fact their first return to CL football was in the 11/12 season. This season is only their third season in a row in it since 2004 if my quick googling was accurate. Their CL final participation last season came after selling both Sahin and Kagawa. Both more or less forced their moves to bigger, higher paying clubs.

I understand the general frustration with football, but I think it's fair to try to separate that from criticism of the club within that reality.

Never? Atletico sold Falcao for £50m, they're benefiting. Roma sold Lamela and Marquinhos for £60m, they've benefited. It can be done.

Agree completely. It's about who you sign.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Never? Atletico sold Falcao for £50m, they're benefiting. Roma sold Lamela and Marquinhos for £60m, they've benefited. It can be done.

Two good examples, particularly Falcao.

Maybe I'm just disillusioned with football in general. Not sure I can take seeing Eriksen sold to Madrid in two years time.