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AUDERE EST FACERE - NOW MORE THAN EVER

Muttley said:
As I've said before, one person's negative is another person's positive. As an example, if someone does want Ange out it is purely because they want a positive outcome for the club. We should not label them as negative because they actually aren't. It is sort of the same as censoring all conversations about it whilst we wallow in victory. If people want to talk about, then let them. We all have a choice to join in or not. It'\s a lot worse when people don't write what they are actually feeling.

Your original point is the more interesting one though. When we went 1-0 up yesterday, my mate and I spent the next hour fearing that they would score. We even said it out loud a few times. I'm guessing we sort of expected it as an ingrained behaviour after decades of Spurs failing. The great question is how does the Spurs fan mentality shift into a much stronger belief system. When do we start sitting there thinking about the 2nd and 3rd goal rather than the opposition scoring in our net? That's how a Pool fan thinks right now.

My feeling on this is a bigger picture perspective actually. I would say that Spurs (and England) has been the weakest link in my life for a long time. I've won in life in so many other ways and experienced success in almost every other aspect. Therefore, as Spurs make their change it should be easy just to slot into that persona. It's the "reasons to believe" argument. Are Spurs giving us enough reasons to believe? I'm not the type to be a happy clapper. I need reasons to be a happy clapper. What happened last night was a reason. Now I need more and more. Just like Robspur was talking about the other day. Being that 8 year old in 1981 and seeing the 3 trophies land. I was also that same 8 year old in that same year. By 1985 we had plenty of reasons to believe. Poch also gave us that from about 2015.

Change management is subtle. You can't just make people change. There has to be a belief first. I still think the direction of travel at Spurs is a good one.
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I actually practiced mindfulness and shut out all the noise and comments around me (to the point they weren't causing me to react) and fed back into my positive belief that this unit were going to get the job done. Whilst doing so, I acquieseced to the reality that we were also going to need a bit of luck; finals demand it. I genuinely thought Solanke was going to control and blast that pass home in the second-half. When it didn't, I still believed.

This unit -this very young unit- now knows how to get the job(s) done. IMO.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
Poch or Iraola
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I like Poch. And Poch built a great team. But he was here for 5 years and we won nothing. He also made the stupid decision of starting an obviously unfit Kane in the final of the CL. A mistake Ange would not be dumb enough to make.

As for Iraola, well, it is not that I think he is a bad manager, because I do not, I like him. However I would be concerned about sacking Ange who has just won as a European trophy for a manager who is is in a current streak of winning just 2 of 14 matches .
 
i don't believe in luck and prefer to create our own.
winning a trophy is great for the player motivation and dealing with superstitions, so any trophy is good (even though Europa is really a 2nd tier competition for last seasons nearly men)
but in the balance of things we still play crap football, has a manager who only knows all-out attack and is waking up to all-out defence, and fear for the next season in both the champions league and the premier league if no significant changes are made.

in short, no change in attitude/belief for me. i think ange has taken us back more than all the coaches before him - the table doesn't lie, we are afraid to play in front of our own fans.
 
thfcsteff said:
Interesting.

I have said on several occasions that June 2019 in Madrid and Nov 2019 when Poch was sacked both broke a piece of me.
I wept.
Each time.
We've discussed this on here before.
I believe we're in total agreement.
I think we also agree on what the next appts did to us.
Where we differ is that I cannot allow the joy when it is there to be had to be turned away.

If we're talking Einstein, here's a couple I like...
A man should look for what it, and not what he thinks should be...

Hitteth ye not the vicar with thine football lest he smite thee a mighty blow which would knock the gonads off an elephant...oh, sorry, that ws Paul Whicker The Tall Vicar from VIZ!!!!!!!
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You want to talk about heartbreaking managerial appointments just think how I felt when the only manager I'd ever known at the club for 16 years was sacked and replaced by Terry Neill.
 
thfcsteff said:
If ever there was a time to believe, to see the light, to see the positivity, to see the unity, to understand how 'together' this group is, to believe, to check assumptions, to check fears, and to see this as the start of another Tottenham Hotspur that both entertains AND knows how to get the job done, then this is it.
The question is, can we -as supporters- change OUR ways? Can people get beyond their pre-baked fears? Can people understand that this is a new era? Can we no longer embrace fear?

Discuss.
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Let's see is the answer.....there's a big decision to be made: does the Europa erase the analysis of where we are going direction wise in the league?

Questions the club management, analytics and medical staff have to ponder:

1) how much are the poor performances and results over the majority of the last 2 seasons down to injuries/circumstance and how much of them are down to tactics, coaching etc.?
2) How much of the catastrophic injuries we have suffered over the last two seasons are down to luck/circumstances and how much are they down to inherently high injury risks of the training regime and style of play?
3) How much is the lack of individual development or regress in performances of playing personnel down to poor coaching and how much of it is down to the talent ceiling of the players purchased and natural decline with age in some cases (e.g. Sonny)?

They have to assess the liklihood of us using this moment to kick on under the current coaching set up or whether its the right moment to let someone else have the reigns.

Rumours we are trying to engineer a formal Paratici return and im sure he's got an opinion...
 
Gutter Boy said:
Last night was great. But that was inspite of him. This is about the future. Its a massive sliding doors moment. Do we get a professional in and return to the top 4. Or do we Ten Hag it again.
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I don't know why people bang on about doing a Ten Hag - they look, and statistically are worse since he left so not sure that supports whatever you're trying to say....
 
metalgear said:
i don't believe in luck and prefer to create our own.
winning a trophy is great for the player motivation and dealing with superstitions, so any trophy is good (even though Europa is really a 2nd tier competition for last seasons nearly men)
but in the balance of things we still play crap football, has a manager who only knows all-out attack and is waking up to all-out defence, and fear for the next season in both the champions league and the premier league if no significant changes are made.

in short, no change in attitude/belief for me. i think ange has taken us back more than all the coaches before him - the table doesn't lie, we are afraid to play in front of our own fans.
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Here we go. Who needs fans of other clubs to put down our achievement when our own fans can do it so well. .
 
NaijaSpurs said:
I like Poch. And Poch built a great team. But he was here for 5 years and we won nothing. He also made the stupid decision of starting an obviously unfit Kane in the final of the CL. A mistake Ange would not be dumb enough to make.
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He won nothing because the trophies he was aiming to win were bigger and more competitive to do so i.e the League and CL.
 
thfcsteff said:
This thread was specifically to have a discussion about whether us -fans, supporters - can unshackle ourselves from fear and fear of things going wrong, something I think has become an increasing issue in life generally, where it seems the race to assume negativity is getting faster, and the fear of a negative outcome from certain actions is increasingly projected.

It was not intended to be about the match specifically or the manager. It was certainly a questioned posed in light of things we learned from Wed night i.e. how to win, how the players have unshackled themselves from such negativity, and whether we can follow suit and believe on a more frequent basis.
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In that case, I completely misunderstood the spirit of your post - for which I apologise! I suppose that puts me in the 'not ready' category, then...
 
Robspur12 said:
He won nothing because the trophies he was aiming to win were bigger and more competitive to do so i.e the League and CL.
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I love Poch and admire for his ambition, however IMHO a large part of his downfall was that ambition.
We were not equipped to seriously challenge for those trophies at that time.
Even in the Leicester year when everyone was falling over we as a squad were not strong enough.
That year he definitely had to take a chance and go for it, but other seasons he would have been better served aiming for a cup and maybe a place or two lower in the league.
It would have bought him time.
 
glasgowspur said:
I love Poch and admire for his ambition, however IMHO a large part of his downfall was that ambition.
We were not equipped to seriously challenge for those trophies at that time.
Even in the Leicester year when everyone was falling over we as a squad were not strong enough.
That year he definitely had to take a chance and go for it, but other seasons he would have been better served aiming for a cup and maybe a place or two lower in the league.
It would have bought him time.
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Was that his choice though?
 
Gutter Boy said:
Have I been wrong though? Does anyone think any of Mourinho, Nuno, Conte or Ange were good appointments? Or that any of them have done anything other than cause us to regress? A handful of Paratici signings have been the only competent managerial actions of the past 5 years. Everything else has been decline.
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I would point you to Giannis', the basketballer. His response to a journalist best fits your post. We are too hung up with declaring seasons without trophies as failures rather than recognising that it is a journey. No team is guaranteed to win trophies every season. We should focus on continuing to do the right things in line with our strategy to achieve our purpose of being the best club. This week was a key milestone. I look forward to more. Each one of those managers played their own part in my opinion and I am grateful to them. Whatever the club decides to do, I am fine with it. And yes I am still 100% Ange IN. If you look at Spurs from 2000 and compare it to today, then you will agree with me that Levy's appointment of Santini has been like pushing off a domino stack. We have been improving since then.
 
Robspur12 said:
He won nothing because the trophies he was aiming to win were bigger and more competitive to do so i.e the League and CL.
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So Poch is allowed a free pass to prioritise and win nothing (FA Cup and League Cup beneath us/him?) because he had over ambitious targets but prioritising winning (and delivering) the Europa is still a cardinal sin for Ange?

I'm one of the 35 who stayed as Ange In during the season but actually think he has taken as far as he can so would welcome a parting of the ways but some on here are so vitriolic against him it is ridiculous - "We won on Wednesday INSPITE of him" for example as if he had nothing to do with team or tactics selection.

Personally, I will be so disappointed if we go back to Poch but I won't hate on him at any point.
 
glasgowspur said:
I love Poch and admire for his ambition, however IMHO a large part of his downfall was that ambition.
We were not equipped to seriously challenge for those trophies at that time.
Even in the Leicester year when everyone was falling over we as a squad were not strong enough.
That year he definitely had to take a chance and go for it, but other seasons he would have been better served aiming for a cup and maybe a place or two lower in the league.
It would have bought him time.
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Coming a very close 2nd in both the league and CL is hardly not being equipped. Its the only time we've been at that level ever, other than 1960-2
 
Lost Mango said:
So Poch is allowed a free pass to prioritise and win nothing (FA Cup and League Cup beneath us/him?) because he had over ambitious targets but prioritising winning (and delivering) the Europa is still a cardinal sin for Ange?

I'm one of the 35 who stayed as Ange In during the season but actually think he has taken as far as he can so would welcome a parting of the ways but some on here are so vitriolic against him it is ridiculous - "We won on Wednesday INSPITE of him" for example as if he had nothing to do with team or tactics selection.

Personally, I will be so disappointed if we go back to Poch but I won't hate on him at any point.
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'Double pivot, full backs tuck in'. That was all we needed to do to win on wednesday. And maybe 10-15 league games that we lost too
 
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