fernadez
Jonathan Woodgate
He has been poor, but I would argue that he's the only one of the front players that can hold up the ball in his defence. Also that he has a much better understanding with Porro than Johnson does.
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Ange’s system / formation
- Thread starter elltrev
- Start date
He has been poor, but I would argue that he's the only one of the front players that can hold up the ball in his defence. Also that he has a much better understanding with Porro than Johnson does.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
Yep
But is he cutting inside because he knows there’s no one to get on the end of anything in the box… I doubt it, but I’m playing devils advocate
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
I did say that the other day.
But as CF he was getting a goal a game and that included some low block sides
He did it by NOT going wandering into other players area. He stayed where he was needed to have an effect in the game
He also defends set pieces better than our defenders
I’m hoping he isn’t the long term answer because he never stays fit but he is the answer for now, for me
Although I’ll repeat what I’ve said that son will suit us against teams like Arsenal and pool who will attack us
Grays_1890
Colin Calderwood
He would be alot better in this side in the Maddison role and given that Madders has dropped off a cliff I would not be against him having a go there again
Bishop
Terry Venables
No I'm saying the score ended up the way it did because Emery fudged up. They had clear tactical missteps on the game. I don't think that's even debatable. We took advantage but their choices allowed us the platform to batter them.
I also said we played even better in the home game so it's not that I'm not giving credit, I'm just pointing out the reason why that game went so badly for them. Just like our game against Saudi Sportswashing Machine had specific reasons it didn't go the way we wanted.
No match result is purely down to a coach's positive or negative actions always a mixture of both plus player actions and reactions.
I don't know if you're been reading things on twitter or elsewhere but you're assigned arguments to me that I haven't even made. You said something about me blaming Ange for the loss yet I've never done that. So maybe just read what I've actually said and take the your emotion out of it and you'll have a better understanding of what I'm trying to say. You don't have to agree but no point claiming I've said something I haven't.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
This is the internet, that’s the entire point.
Diamond Lights
Didier Zokora
Does it not feel there are clear parallels between begining of the season and second half, where teams have clearly watched us play and figured out a plan to adjust and counter us?
I look at our early form and now this second half and feels like chalk and cheese, with majority of the time same players. We’re one game a week so it’s not tiredness. Feels like we’ve been figured out. I might be wrong but that’s how it feels at least. Teams are setting up knowing how we play and unless we adjust things, the better teams may have our number.
Only positive is the ‘top 6’ style teams wont adjust their plans to play us. Maybe we’ll work better against them
I look at our early form and now this second half and feels like chalk and cheese, with majority of the time same players. We’re one game a week so it’s not tiredness. Feels like we’ve been figured out. I might be wrong but that’s how it feels at least. Teams are setting up knowing how we play and unless we adjust things, the better teams may have our number.
Only positive is the ‘top 6’ style teams wont adjust their plans to play us. Maybe we’ll work better against them
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
The better teams won’t do what the lesser teams do as you say
They will fancy their chances of going toe to toe
We played city away in the poor spell when we had a make shift side don’t forget
But also early season we took the chances when they’re they came and scored first a lot
The times where we have scored first and lost have been a real mix bag of games
Battered way ham and Villa and lost
Wolves away we should have got over the line but naivety and a lack of marking cost us there
tommysvr
Justin Edinburgh
Did you just reply to me without reading what I was replying to then? I'm just exasperated because everywhere I look at the moment there is so much complaining, so many tactical geniuses explain why Ange isn't working and how he "has to change" without any context of where the club was just 12 months ago.
Yes, teams fear us (which is very interesting acknowledgement that hasn't happened for some time)
- There are three clear tactics, sit deeper out of possession (to close space behind, potentially going 5 at the back), go man to man marking to negate the movement that our system provides, and constant tactical fouling to break our flow.
What you seem to be failing to acknowledge
- We are a system side now (something most people have wanted for some time now, and most top sides have), the downside to system teams are 2 things, 1/It takes time to get the system correct, 2/You have to improve/buy better or more suited players to improve (so you need windows, see point 1)
- Injuries probably cost us 10 points this season (while every team has that, ours was particularly bad this year), if you look at the table, 2-3 results would have swung your perspective
The true measure is out of our competition, who has done better?
- Pool, City, Scum are system sides that have a manager for 5+ years, plus system time to settle, plus years/windows to improve squad (with significant spend)
- Villa has had a better season (similar starting point)
- Saudi Sportswashing Machine, United, Chelsea, Brighton, West Ham, all worse seasons
So one team? and for reference, City & Pool have had significant losses 3+ seasons into Pep/Klopp's time, it happens.
It's fair to question Ange, my current complaint is I think he's a little slow to swap starters who are out of form, but truth is, we are committed, and we probably won't know what Ange's Spurs is, and how effective it is until the end of next season.
Bishop
Terry Venables
Sure, but I haven't said any of those things is my point. By all means get exasperated but I haven't blamed Ange for the loss nor said he has to change his system. I'm pro Ange and I'm pro his system, I think he just needs better players to make it work, not change the system.
Lemonade Money
Steffen Freund
I'll also add that although I'm as bad as anyone wanting a player dropped for an awful performance, Ange is probably only interested in the players learning the system this season. Therefore he's starting players who appear to be out of form as he wants then to learn the system, and is not overly worried about results. Pool, City, Scum also went through a season or two like this with their present managers.
tommysvr
Justin Edinburgh
Right, I get that now but you responded to me responding to someone who did say that.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
Winner winner chicken dinner
I’ll add that the frustration comes that since the turn of the year we’re conceding remarkably similar goals
Counters and set pieces
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
Fycking awful at home to arsenal
Bishop
Terry Venables
I know you said this a while back but I'm not really sure if teams really fear us. We play quite predictably and the method to stymie us is fairly apparent and repeatable.
I don't have a problem really with the system just the components in it. I think we significant overhauls in most areas for the way we attempt to play to be successful. No settling, as settling isn't going to get us anywhere. We need genuine technicians to play the Ange system until we do I don't think anyone truly fears us.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
It's been an interesting second half of the season, to be honest. A few things are generally becoming clear with time, which to me signal both a floor and a ceiling to what Postecoglou can achieve with us.
Start with the floor, the more optimistic half -
1. We will generally enjoy more possession than the opposition in most, if not all games.
2. There will be no shortage of energy when pressing, though organization is another matter.
3. We will always have a minimum of 7 players in attacking positions.
4. Against roughly the bottom 14 or so of the Premier League, we'll win more games than we lose through a combination of all of the above plus individual quality.
Now, the ceilings -
1. I don't think we'll ever compete for the league - just too many tactical weaknesses in this system, from yawning spaces behind the full-backs to the ease of bypassing our pressing systems with simple balls over the top.
2. I don't think Postecoglou has any more surprises that what he's already showing. This is his system, it will not change, and neither will he. We will continue to concede dozens of goals from set pieces because he doesn't consider coaching set pieces to be a priority, and it's his way or the highway. He has his team, and he sticks to it. Adaptability in games is a distant dream, and tactical flexibility likewise.
3. With a combination of the two above, my guess is, 4th - 6th place is our ceiling under Postecoglou. I doubt we'll fall lower, but I doubt we'll ever go higher.
To me, Postecoglou seems like a slightly more adept Martin Jol - the man we needed to bring some unity and togetherness back to the football club, but not necessarily the man to push us to winning things.
And that's up to you as to how you take that. If you expect better, he isn't the man for us long term. If you accept that this is forever our ceiling under this ownership, then it's all good. Personally I've resigned myself to the latter, so whomever ENIC employ doesn't really bother me anymore, and neither does Ange's approach. He'll give us more good days than bad, just about. Good enough.
The one thing I will say about Postecoglou in comparison to other managers, though - he is in no way, shape or form a better manager than, for example, Emery. Emery came in and instantly had Villa shooting up the table - they've never really stopped growing in his tenure, continuously improving. Beyond that, he's won tons of European honours in leagues a little more distinguished than Scotland, Japan and Australia.
Where he wins out over Ange is his tactical flexibility - occasionally he gets it wrong, like against us, but more often than not he gets it right. Postecoglou has no similar tactical ability, and it means everything needs to be perfect for his system to work. For me, those managers are always inherently more limited than tactically flexible coaches. But, your opinion may differ, and that's fine.
Start with the floor, the more optimistic half -
1. We will generally enjoy more possession than the opposition in most, if not all games.
2. There will be no shortage of energy when pressing, though organization is another matter.
3. We will always have a minimum of 7 players in attacking positions.
4. Against roughly the bottom 14 or so of the Premier League, we'll win more games than we lose through a combination of all of the above plus individual quality.
Now, the ceilings -
1. I don't think we'll ever compete for the league - just too many tactical weaknesses in this system, from yawning spaces behind the full-backs to the ease of bypassing our pressing systems with simple balls over the top.
2. I don't think Postecoglou has any more surprises that what he's already showing. This is his system, it will not change, and neither will he. We will continue to concede dozens of goals from set pieces because he doesn't consider coaching set pieces to be a priority, and it's his way or the highway. He has his team, and he sticks to it. Adaptability in games is a distant dream, and tactical flexibility likewise.
3. With a combination of the two above, my guess is, 4th - 6th place is our ceiling under Postecoglou. I doubt we'll fall lower, but I doubt we'll ever go higher.
To me, Postecoglou seems like a slightly more adept Martin Jol - the man we needed to bring some unity and togetherness back to the football club, but not necessarily the man to push us to winning things.
And that's up to you as to how you take that. If you expect better, he isn't the man for us long term. If you accept that this is forever our ceiling under this ownership, then it's all good. Personally I've resigned myself to the latter, so whomever ENIC employ doesn't really bother me anymore, and neither does Ange's approach. He'll give us more good days than bad, just about. Good enough.
The one thing I will say about Postecoglou in comparison to other managers, though - he is in no way, shape or form a better manager than, for example, Emery. Emery came in and instantly had Villa shooting up the table - they've never really stopped growing in his tenure, continuously improving. Beyond that, he's won tons of European honours in leagues a little more distinguished than Scotland, Japan and Australia.
Where he wins out over Ange is his tactical flexibility - occasionally he gets it wrong, like against us, but more often than not he gets it right. Postecoglou has no similar tactical ability, and it means everything needs to be perfect for his system to work. For me, those managers are always inherently more limited than tactically flexible coaches. But, your opinion may differ, and that's fine.
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tommysvr
Justin Edinburgh
Oh look who's turned up again...we must have lost a game.