Ange’s system / formation

[DubaiSpur]

Give
It
Some
fudging
Time!

I have. An entire season, more or less. This is based on 36 league and cup games mate, which as a sample size is fair enough to draw conclusions from. Some good, some bad, overall probably an above average manager. But not someone who's going to transform us like Poch did - Poch, for all his flaws (and he had similarly rigid views), both had more tactical flexibility and revolutionized the Premier League (along with Klopp) by bringing high pressing into English football. Postecoglou doesn't seem like he has that sort of tactical surprise in him.

Oh look who's turned up again...we must have lost a game.

We've lost quite a few, mate. 3-0 and 4-0 capitulations at Fulham and Saudi Sportswashing Machine included. But I gave it time after those atrocities to compose my thoughts.

Believe it or not, I have zero stress about Postecoglou or Spurs. Too much going on in my life right now, and I have reached a happy medium of just giving up on ever achieving anything under these owners, which I think gives me zen and a sense of detachment.

Up to you as to whether you feel that makes my occasional posts any more insightful - certainly post less here on the whole than I once did.

 

[tommysvr]

I have. An entire season, more or less. This is based on 36 league and cup games mate, which as a sample size is fair enough to draw conclusions from. Some good, some bad, overall probably an above average manager. But not someone who's going to transform us like Poch did - Poch, for all his flaws (and he had similarly rigid views), both had more tactical flexibility and revolutionized the Premier League (along with Klopp) by bringing high pressing into English football. Postecoglou doesn't seem like he has that sort of tactical surprise in him.

Are you really saying Pochettino had proven himself by the end of his first season?

Up to you as to whether you feel that makes my occasional posts any more insightful - certainly post less here on the whole than I once did.

And thank Christ for that. Every so often you turn up to offer us your ramblings disguised as prose by writing about 500 more words than people would read on a forum, because more words == intelligence, right? Things that can genuinely be summed by up:

- the Chairman is useless
- the manager is useless
- the players are useless
- we’ll never win anything

 

[DubaiSpur]

Are you really saying Pochettino had proven himself by the end of his first season?

Not quite. I am saying he'd shown more promise at the end of his first season than Postecoglou will have done.

If you'll recall, we spent that 14/15 season playing two academy kids in midfield in Bentaleb and Mason (neither of whom would go on to feature in Poch's more successful sides), a former reject in Danny Rose at left back, and a center half by training in Eric Dier at right-back.

He inherited an almost identical situation to Postecoglou - a patchwork team that had gone through numerous recent managers, and was still trying to find its feet after selling it's best player. But by the end of that season, spending far less than Postecoglou has done, and using many more academy kids, Poch had us playing some thrilling stuff, got us to the League Cup final, beat Arsenal and Chelsea (among others), and you could see that his pressing approach was unsettling teams who didn't know how to cope. All this, while also playing in Europe, if you'll recall.

Postecoglou will likely have us finishing 5th, like Poch did. But if anything, the team has looked increasingly worse the more time he's had to drill them, which is not a good sign. And of course he exited both cups at basically the first hurdle, without even the hurdle of European football to deal with - basically free midweeks all season, which haven't benefited us in the slightest.

So, yes, I'd say Poch showed more promise than Postecoglou early on. Again, not saying this means Postecoglou is *bad* - but he's not Poch. Above average is about right to describe him, I think.

 

[tommysvr]

Not quite. I am saying he'd shown more promise at the end of his first season than Postecoglou will have done.

If you'll recall, we spent that 14/15 season playing two academy kids in midfield in Bentaleb and Mason (neither of whom would go on to feature in Poch's more successful sides), a former reject in Danny Rose at left back, and a center half by training in Eric Dier at right-back.

He inherited an almost identical situation to Postecoglou - a patchwork team that had gone through numerous recent managers, and was still trying to find its feet after selling it's best player. But by the end of that season, spending far less than Postecoglou has done, and using many more academy kids, Poch had us playing some thrilling stuff, got us to the League Cup final, beat Arsenal and Chelsea (among others), and you could see that his pressing approach was unsettling teams who didn't know how to cope. All this, while also playing in Europe, if you'll recall.

Postecoglou will likely have us finishing 5th, like Poch did. But if anything, the team has looked increasingly worse the more time he's had to drill them, which is not a good sign. And of course he exited both cups at basically the first hurdle, without even the hurdle of European football to deal with - basically free midweeks all season, which haven't benefited us in the slightest.

So, yes, I'd say Poch showed more promise than Postecoglou early on. Again, not saying this means Postecoglou is *bad* - but he's not Poch. Above average is about right to describe him, I think.

There is absolutely no way you could have predicted what was to come with Poch after his first season. He showed promise, but how the fudge can you sit there and say Ange hasn’t shown at least similar promise? To write him off after less than a season…see the rest of my post above. It’s pathetic.

fudge I am so sick of the negativity of people like you. It’s so fudging boring.

 

[DubaiSpur]

And thank Christ for that. Every so often you turn up to offer us your ramblings disguised as prose by writing about 500 more words than people would read on a forum, because more words == intelligence, right? Things that can genuinely be summed by up:

- the Chairman is useless
- the manager is useless
- the players are useless
- we’ll never win anything

Eh. To be honest I wrote you off a long time ago mate, but replying to your rants about my views helps me think through my own positions, so it's still useful to me.

Other than that I find there's not much value to be gained from your views, and I'm sure you think the same of mine, so soz - to each his own.

 

[tommysvr]

Eh. To be honest I wrote you off a long time ago mate, but replying to your rants about my views helps me think through my own positions, so it's still useful to me.

Other than that I find there's not much value to be gained from your views, and I'm sure you think the same of mine, so soz - to each his own.

Well I for one cannot wait until you grace us with your negative nonsense again in a few months time. Enjoy your very zen life in the meantime.

 

[DubaiSpur]

There is absolutely no way you could have predicted what was to come with Poch after his first season. He showed promise, but how the fudge can you sit there and say Ange hasn’t shown at least similar promise? To write him off after less than a season…see the rest of my post above. It’s pathetic.

fudge I am so sick of the negativity of people like you. It’s so fudging boring.

I don't think anyone could have predicted what was to come under Poch, but I do recall thinking we'd get a lot better under him as the years went on, because of what I outlined above. Dealt with challenges well, used the academy a lot, did well despite limited spending, his tactics were routinely unsettling opponents. I was optimistic we would get better, and time proved me right.

Can't really say the same of Postecoglou. I think we'll do roughly how we're doing now - some ups, some downs, floating around 4th to 6th, mostly good football, and good vibes. But there's a ceiling there that didn't exist with Poch, who was a class above.

Up to you if you think that's negative mate - to me it just seems a reasonable assessment, without rose-tinted glasses or too much negativity. But, up to you.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Well I for one cannot wait until you grace us with your negative nonsense again in a few months time. Enjoy your very zen life in the meantime.

Thanks mate - enjoying it. Try calming down a little and you might, too.

 

[DubaiSpur]

. He showed promise, but how the fudge can you sit there and say Ange hasn’t shown at least similar promise?

Also, can I just close by saying - this is why it's amusing to chat with you, mate. I give you a bunch of reasons why Poch showed more promise than Postecoglou, twice. Laid them out in explicit detail. You skip all that and angrily rant about negativity.

Then you actually complain about having to read. I can't be blamed for you not reading, mate.

 

[DeanoAustin]

There is absolutely no way you could have predicted what was to come with Poch after his first season. He showed promise, but how the fudge can you sit there and say Ange hasn’t shown at least similar promise? To write him off after less than a season…see the rest of my post above. It’s pathetic.

fudge I am so sick of the negativity of people like you. It’s so fudging boring.

To be fair, I don’t think @DubaiSpur has written Ange off at all. He’s expressed a similar view to what I’ve expressed on here. He, like any manager of our club, has a tough job to win anything under the ownership model with the way other clubs operate (I wouldn’t be as scathing of the owners as Dubai).

Ange also has some tactical shortcomings that, in our view, mean he won’t have us punching far above our weight to the extent Poch did. But that’s fine, it’s better than some of the recent brick we’ve been served up and he’ll do a decent job.

Writing him off would be demanding he gets sacked. What Dubai has done is give a fairly well argued opinion on why he doesn’t believe that Ange will replicate the success here that he’s had in Australia, Japan and Scotland but he certainly deserves time to prove us wrong. It’s a discussion board. People have opinions so it’s fine to discuss them.

 

[tommysvr]

To be fair, I don’t think @DubaiSpur has written Ange off at all. He’s expressed a similar view to what I’ve expressed on here. He, like any manager of our club, has a tough job to win anything under the ownership model with the way other clubs operate (I wouldn’t be as scathing of the owners as Dubai).

Ange also has some tactical shortcomings that, in our view, mean he won’t have us punching far above our weight to the extent Poch did. But that’s fine, it’s better than some of the recent brick we’ve been served up and he’ll do a decent job.

Writing him off would be demanding he gets sacked. What Dubai has done is give a fairly well argued opinion on why he doesn’t believe that Ange will replicate the success here that he’s had in Australia, Japan and Scotland but he certainly deserves time to prove us wrong. It’s a discussion board. People have opinions so it’s fine to discuss them.

You said he's never going to win anything. The other bloke said he'll never finish above 4th. That's writing him off to me -- at least writing off a huge part of what being a football fan is about...hope.

And to add...Ange is always written off. That's what makes this fun. I cannot guarantee he's going to emulate Poch (who won nothing btw) but I can absolutely guarantee you we've seen but a small glimpse of what Ange's teams are about.

The problem is people like DubaiSpur who want EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW and don't have it in them to see out bumps in the road build negativity around the club. Negative people spread their negativity like a virus. Ange might not get the time he needs because of people like him.

 

[DubaiSpur]

To be fair, I don’t think @DubaiSpur has written Ange off at all. He’s expressed a similar view to what I’ve expressed on here. He, like any manager of our club, has a tough job to win anything under the ownership model with the way other clubs operate (I wouldn’t be as scathing of the owners as Dubai).

Ange also has some tactical shortcomings that, in our view, mean he won’t have us punching far above our weight to the extent Poch did. But that’s fine, it’s better than some of the recent brick we’ve been served up and he’ll do a decent job.

Writing him off would be demanding he gets sacked. What Dubai has done is give a fairly well argued opinion on why he doesn’t believe that Ange will replicate the success here that he’s had in Australia, Japan and Scotland but he certainly deserves time to prove us wrong. It’s a discussion board. People have opinions so it’s fine to discuss them.

Well said.

@tommysvr amusingly ranting and raving at any and every opportunity is a given, I'm not surprised and nor do I particularly care.

But for those who actually would like a discussion, I'm open to views on why my comparison with Poch is inaccurate (in the post above, if people would like to refer to it). Like I said, similar circumstances, but imo Poch showed much lot more in his first season than Postecoglou did.

That certainly doesn't mean we should ditch Ange or write him off, but it does mean that he's likely limited in a way that Poch wasn't, and we've probably already seen his ceiling and limitations.

Despite that, I'm perfectly fine with keeping him around - like I said, he'll likely have us competitive and punching in and around 4th to 6th, and there are worse fates than being an also-ran.

 

[tommysvr]

we've probably already seen his ceiling and limitations.

I fudging love this.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I fudging love this.

Good, glad you're having fun mate.

 

[braineclipse]

Comparisons to Poch surely also has to take into account the quality of the best teams in the league at that time compared to now.

It takes time. Like it did for Poch, Arteta, Klopp. There's so much to be optimistic and happy about. Some of the football we're playing is breathtaking.

We're still short on missing pieces in the starting 11, then also the squad. Like for those other managers that have needed time.

If we're still seeing those same weaknesses hurting us with a similar frequency a year from now I'll start getting concerned.

The job Ange has done so far has been incredibly impressive. Losing Kane, completely changing the way we play, integrating a lot of new players, quite a few younger players without PL experience.

I think he'll continue to do very impressive work. Why wouldn't he with another summer transfer window, another preseason, players more used to his system.

 

[Bishop]

The ceiling

I don't think anyone could have predicted what was to come under Poch, but I do recall thinking we'd get a lot better under him as the years went on, because of what I outlined above. Dealt with challenges well, used the academy a lot, did well despite limited spending, his tactics were routinely unsettling opponents. I was optimistic we would get better, and time proved me right.

Can't really say the same of Postecoglou. I think we'll do roughly how we're doing now - some ups, some downs, floating around 4th to 6th, mostly good football, and good vibes. But there's a ceiling there that didn't exist with Poch, who was a class above.

Up to you if you think that's negative mate - to me it just seems a reasonable assessment, without rose-tinted glasses or too much negativity. But, up to you.

The ceiling is down to the quality of players that either come through the youth system or are bought in. If their quality is high Ange and his system will do well and may even challenge seriously. If the recruitment is just bog standard then yeah I think we will bounce around between 4th and 6th.

 

[braineclipse]

The ceiling

The ceiling is down to the quality of players that either come through the youth system or are bought in. If their quality is high Ange and his system will do well and may even challenge seriously. If the recruitment is just bog standard then yeah I think we will bounce around between 4th and 6th.

Spot on imo.

There's nothing to indicate that this system won't be significantly better with better players.

We have some fantastic players. But the first team and the squad aren't up to the required level yet. We've known this for a long time.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

Hopefully he's wise enough to bring in a set piece expert.

 

[Mrs Vert]

Well people. It seems it may well not change. .

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Hopefully he's wise enough to bring in a set piece expert.

He won’t