Ange’s system / formation

[Gazza Dazzla]

Agreed, considering many posters thought we were in for a transition season and they’d even be happy with qualifying for the conference league, whereas others had us mid table or a relegation battle… it seems a bit of a strange narrative (by some, not all) to be critical of a manager / system that’s got us 4th place (currently) on merit.

 

[braineclipse]

Very happy, very impressed. Love the system including the downsides most of the time.

I think we can improve with the current crop of players getting another preseason, for some of them a year of experience, and from getting further settled into this system and into a unit.

But we'll hopefully also get real improvements in the transfer market. We can debate somewhat who should be "upgraded on", but no doubt there's room for improvement in the transfer market and with our recent transfer record I'm hopeful about another very useful summer

 

[Lemonade Money]

Agreed, considering many posters thought we were in for a transition season and they’d even be happy with qualifying for the conference league, whereas others had us mid table or a relegation battle… it seems a bit of a strange narrative (by some, not all) to be critical of a manager / system that’s got us 4th place (currently) on merit.

They are all miserable gits who get off on moaning.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree with you @elltrev - I'd love to hear him explain the tactical rationale behind making the full-backs into trequartistas when you could just stick another AM into the side and have him and Maddison play that role in the middle, while keeping the full backs tucked in behind them. With the rumors of us signing Eze, if it happens, I wonder if that is indeed how he'll set up - Son up top, Werner-Eze-Maddison-Johnson behind him, Udogie and Porto tucked in alongside Benta/Biss/another DM, like City.

Overall, I'd say he's performing decently. A strong start was then brought to a halt by the harsh reality of the Premier League, and now we're performing decently on the whole. I think as the next couple of seasons wear on we should improve provided he gets some of the other pieces he needs - think he's lacking pacy cover for VdV, a properly dominant DM and two wingers who focus on getting chalk on their boots and taking on/beating their men out wide.

On the whole, I never expected miracles this season - with Kane gone, the last bit of hope for this club wanting to win things left with it, and given work pressures, I tuned out to an extent. Especially given we seemed to have hired some cheap rando from Scotland. 8th-10th would not have surprised me.

But he's pleasantly surprised me with his genuine honesty, openness and commitment to play his way, as well as the way he's brought the staff and players together by just being himself, a likeable and straightforward bloke. I think he'll keep us punching in and around 4th/5th and give us good football, bravery in and out of possession, and honesty in press conferences. With our ownership, that's about all we can ask for, I think.

No idea what Ange's rationale would be of curse.

What is pretty much the norm is to get some kind of 2-3-5/3-2-5 shape in settled attacking phases. Many ways of going about that, but keeping both full backs tucked in behind, fairly deep and fairly wide is only an option if you then have a centre back very consistently stepping up into midfield.

It's also pretty much the norm to have someone staying wide, either the wingers or full backs.

I like this approach in achieving this. I don't think it's "better" than other ways of achieving that, but it's also not worse. But it's good to have a way, a style, and sticking to it. There are advantages and disadvantages as with any approach.

And we have full backs that fit very nicely into those roles in Udogie and Porro. They do a lot of good work in the middle third, some of it I would associate with being a "trequartista" type player, but most if it imo doesn't fit my impression of that role.

 

[Lilbaz]

Agreed, considering many posters thought we were in for a transition season and they’d even be happy with qualifying for the conference league, whereas others had us mid table or a relegation battle… it seems a bit of a strange narrative (by some, not all) to be critical of a manager / system that’s got us 4th place (currently) on merit.

Sure there must be a psychological term, for when you love something but it has hurt you so now you both love it and hate it at the same time?

A lot of our fans seem to suffer from it.

 

[Gutter Boy]

And City has the same open problem we do, they get away with it (most times) by having Rodri (WC player) provide cover.

Look, real top sides today have a few general principles
- Maintain possession, if you can't blow your opponent away, you will eventually exhaust them
- Control the midfield
- Create overloads, get players into opposition box
- Break lines by passing/carrying ball through

This is different from the brick ETH does (or Conte did with us) where you give up either possession or control of midfield

The question is how does Ange do it?

4-3-3 out of possession, that moves to effectively 2-3-5 in attack (that's how we create the overloads and players in box)
We are way more fluid than City (not saying better), because players are told to go wherever the space is (they swap?)
Our main attacks are either wide player getting to byline and crossing (either cut back or across the goal) with opposite side wide player coming in at back post, or decisive pass strait through the middle.
Team is built generally around players that have speed, physical and technical attributes, we are also very good on counter/transition (something most top teams are)

Flaws and counters
- Any overcommit model is subject to counter, we manage that by this 2-3-5 shape being reasonably congested in center (counter has to go wide, longer route) and having VDV plus both FBs being reasonably quick
- We concede less changes but often higher quality, hence Vicario is also critical
- Another counter is to mark us 1:1 (kills the fluidity and spaces that having players go into unusual positions for their roles creates) and lots of bricky little fouls (to break up our possession/rhythm game)

I think people generally have the weirdest sense of what it takes in football at the top level

- Spurs are currently on pace for best season in the last 4 years
- 11 points off the top, 11 points ahead of the 6th place team
- The top 3 teams have all had their manager for 4+ years, are extremely well drilled, have had 8+ windows of buying player to fit their system, have all spent way above their income levels.
- Spurs have new manager, ~7 new first team players and the worst injury season I've ever seen
- From day 1, we have been told that Ange's game is going to fall apart at times and we will get thumped? we have had very few really bad games (I can think of 3), none of which I'd consider a thumping/thrashing

Ange may still have things to do with us, but expecting anything more from this season?

The only thing I don't get is why we haven't hit a groove again this spring.

We were awesome in the autumn.

Winter was hit by injuries and internationals.

But we've been really stuttering of late, even though we've had a near fully fit squad again.

Maddison, Bentancur and Bissouma have all looked rusty/been slow to come back from their injuries and illnesses. Bentancur maybe has an excuse due to the length of his absence, but I've found this surprising.

We've had so few games/so much training time this year, compared with the whole last 15 years, I just thought we'd see more training ground forged leaps in performance again (like the autumn), but we haven't. We also look leggy in spells (between 15-45 mins in both our last two), yet we're only playing half the games of our competitors.

I do wonder if we're struggling against bus parkers (esp without Richarlison), and will click much more against teams that try to go toe-to-toe with us. Maybe have a run-in like 2010. But so far I've found the spring a little bit tempering.

 

[Lilbaz]

Sure there must be a psychological term, for when you love something but it has hurt you so now you both love it and hate it at the same time?

A lot of our fans seem to suffer from it.

Ambivalence.

 

[Yiddo]

The only thing I don't get is why we haven't hit a groove again this spring.

We were awesome in the autumn.

Winter was hit by injuries and internationals.

But we've been really stuttering of late, even though we've had a near fully fit squad again.

Maddison, Bentancur and Bissouma have all looked rusty/been slow to come back from their injuries and illnesses. Bentancur maybe has an excuse due to the length of his absence, but I've found this surprising.

We've had so few games/so much training time this year, compared with the whole last 15 years, I just thought we'd see more training ground forged leaps in performance again (like the autumn), but we haven't. We also look leggy in spells (between 15-45 mins in both our last two), yet we're only playing half the games of our competitors.

I do wonder if we're struggling against bus parkers (esp without Richarlison), and will click much more against teams that try to go toe-to-toe with us. Maybe have a run-in like 2010. But so far I've found the spring a little bit tempering.

New manager and player bounce, thats all that was, oh and the fact teams adapt to our tactics and pack the midfield.

 

[jrh]

New manager and player bounce, thats all that was, oh and the fact teams adapt to our tactics and pack the midfield.

Injuries and sporadic schedule caused our drop off, we're still trying to regain momentum. It'll come.

 

[Lilbaz]

Ambivalence.

Actually more cognitive dissonance.

I'm not a psychologist though.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And City has the same open problem we do, they get away with it (most times) by having Rodri (WC player) provide cover.

Look, real top sides today have a few general principles
- Maintain possession, if you can't blow your opponent away, you will eventually exhaust them
- Control the midfield
- Create overloads, get players into opposition box
- Break lines by passing/carrying ball through

This is different from the brick ETH does (or Conte did with us) where you give up either possession or control of midfield

The question is how does Ange do it?

4-3-3 out of possession, that moves to effectively 2-3-5 in attack (that's how we create the overloads and players in box)
We are way more fluid than City (not saying better), because players are told to go wherever the space is (they swap?)
Our main attacks are either wide player getting to byline and crossing (either cut back or across the goal) with opposite side wide player coming in at back post, or decisive pass strait through the middle.
Team is built generally around players that have speed, physical and technical attributes, we are also very good on counter/transition (something most top teams are)

Flaws and counters
- Any overcommit model is subject to counter, we manage that by this 2-3-5 shape being reasonably congested in center (counter has to go wide, longer route) and having VDV plus both FBs being reasonably quick
- We concede less changes but often higher quality, hence Vicario is also critical
- Another counter is to mark us 1:1 (kills the fluidity and spaces that having players go into unusual positions for their roles creates) and lots of bricky little fouls (to break up our possession/rhythm game)

I think people generally have the weirdest sense of what it takes in football at the top level

- Spurs are currently on pace for best season in the last 4 years
- 11 points off the top, 11 points ahead of the 6th place team
- The top 3 teams have all had their manager for 4+ years, are extremely well drilled, have had 8+ windows of buying player to fit their system, have all spent way above their income levels.
- Spurs have new manager, ~7 new first team players and the worst injury season I've ever seen
- From day 1, we have been told that Ange's game is going to fall apart at times and we will get thumped? we have had very few really bad games (I can think of 3), none of which I'd consider a thumping/thrashing

Ange may still have things to do with us, but expecting anything more from this season?

Outstanding post

 

[jrh]

And City has the same open problem we do, they get away with it (most times) by having Rodri (WC player) provide cover.

Look, real top sides today have a few general principles
- Maintain possession, if you can't blow your opponent away, you will eventually exhaust them
- Control the midfield
- Create overloads, get players into opposition box
- Break lines by passing/carrying ball through

This is different from the brick ETH does (or Conte did with us) where you give up either possession or control of midfield

The question is how does Ange do it?

4-3-3 out of possession, that moves to effectively 2-3-5 in attack (that's how we create the overloads and players in box)
We are way more fluid than City (not saying better), because players are told to go wherever the space is (they swap?)
Our main attacks are either wide player getting to byline and crossing (either cut back or across the goal) with opposite side wide player coming in at back post, or decisive pass strait through the middle.
Team is built generally around players that have speed, physical and technical attributes, we are also very good on counter/transition (something most top teams are)

Flaws and counters
- Any overcommit model is subject to counter, we manage that by this 2-3-5 shape being reasonably congested in center (counter has to go wide, longer route) and having VDV plus both FBs being reasonably quick
- We concede less changes but often higher quality, hence Vicario is also critical
- Another counter is to mark us 1:1 (kills the fluidity and spaces that having players go into unusual positions for their roles creates) and lots of bricky little fouls (to break up our possession/rhythm game)

I think people generally have the weirdest sense of what it takes in football at the top level

- Spurs are currently on pace for best season in the last 4 years
- 11 points off the top, 11 points ahead of the 6th place team
- The top 3 teams have all had their manager for 4+ years, are extremely well drilled, have had 8+ windows of buying player to fit their system, have all spent way above their income levels.
- Spurs have new manager, ~7 new first team players and the worst injury season I've ever seen
- From day 1, we have been told that Ange's game is going to fall apart at times and we will get thumped? we have had very few really bad games (I can think of 3), none of which I'd consider a thumping/thrashing

Ange may still have things to do with us, but expecting anything more from this season?

POTY contender right here

 

[parklane1]

First season.

1. he needed to fully know the players he had, see how they fit the system. Work out who he really like, who he can depend on and where we need replacements. So first season is normally very hit and miss.

Sorry for cutting your post down i do not disagree with any of what you say, but for me the bit above is/was the number 1 objective for me. He took over a side which in all honesty was a mess and needed a big overall and i think most sensiable fans would have accepted and agreed with that at the time. However because we had a good start some of those same fans have got carried away and are now expecting for us to be the finished articule, the truth is we are not and Ange still has a lot of work to do to achieve that.

I was hearing before the season started a lot of doom and gloom from fans that we were a mess and they thought we would struggle to make ANY progress and i think most of us can see we have. Are we the finished articule of couse not but we are making progress and we have a good chance of finishing in the top four and that is a good start.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Agreed, considering many posters thought we were in for a transition season and they’d even be happy with qualifying for the conference league, whereas others had us mid table or a relegation battle… it seems a bit of a strange narrative (by some, not all) to be critical of a manager / system that’s got us 4th place (currently) on merit.

We do have people with confused opinions or here, you only have to look back at post during games where team or players can be world class and totally useless within 30 minutes. I feel most of our fans are happy with our progress, I get this from the people sitting around us at the ground, the last couple of years it's been awful listening to the moaning and bile pouring out.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Due to the local incident in Tottenham we had to park in the school playground opposite the ground rather than Sainsburys and take different routes to and from ground, it was nice to see a lot of the old pubs I've used in the past still open.

 

[tommysvr]

Somewhat related to this thread, I keep a journal on my phone. This popped in my ‘on this day’ feed. Crazy how we’ve come in just one year.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

And City has the same open problem we do, they get away with it (most times) by having Rodri (WC player) provide cover.

Look, real top sides today have a few general principles
- Maintain possession, if you can't blow your opponent away, you will eventually exhaust them
- Control the midfield
- Create overloads, get players into opposition box
- Break lines by passing/carrying ball through

This is different from the brick ETH does (or Conte did with us) where you give up either possession or control of midfield

The question is how does Ange do it?

4-3-3 out of possession, that moves to effectively 2-3-5 in attack (that's how we create the overloads and players in box)
We are way more fluid than City (not saying better), because players are told to go wherever the space is (they swap?)
Our main attacks are either wide player getting to byline and crossing (either cut back or across the goal) with opposite side wide player coming in at back post, or decisive pass strait through the middle.
Team is built generally around players that have speed, physical and technical attributes, we are also very good on counter/transition (something most top teams are)

Flaws and counters
- Any overcommit model is subject to counter, we manage that by this 2-3-5 shape being reasonably congested in center (counter has to go wide, longer route) and having VDV plus both FBs being reasonably quick
- We concede less changes but often higher quality, hence Vicario is also critical
- Another counter is to mark us 1:1 (kills the fluidity and spaces that having players go into unusual positions for their roles creates) and lots of bricky little fouls (to break up our possession/rhythm game)

I think people generally have the weirdest sense of what it takes in football at the top level

- Spurs are currently on pace for best season in the last 4 years
- 11 points off the top, 11 points ahead of the 6th place team
- The top 3 teams have all had their manager for 4+ years, are extremely well drilled, have had 8+ windows of buying player to fit their system, have all spent way above their income levels.
- Spurs have new manager, ~7 new first team players and the worst injury season I've ever seen
- From day 1, we have been told that Ange's game is going to fall apart at times and we will get thumped? we have had very few really bad games (I can think of 3), none of which I'd consider a thumping/thrashing

Ange may still have things to do with us, but expecting anything more from this season?

He's only gone and nutshelled it.

 

[elltrev]

And City has the same open problem we do, they get away with it (most times) by having Rodri (WC player) provide cover.

Look, real top sides today have a few general principles
- Maintain possession, if you can't blow your opponent away, you will eventually exhaust them
- Control the midfield
- Create overloads, get players into opposition box
- Break lines by passing/carrying ball through

This is different from the brick ETH does (or Conte did with us) where you give up either possession or control of midfield

The question is how does Ange do it?

4-3-3 out of possession, that moves to effectively 2-3-5 in attack (that's how we create the overloads and players in box)
We are way more fluid than City (not saying better), because players are told to go wherever the space is (they swap?)
Our main attacks are either wide player getting to byline and crossing (either cut back or across the goal) with opposite side wide player coming in at back post, or decisive pass strait through the middle.
Team is built generally around players that have speed, physical and technical attributes, we are also very good on counter/transition (something most top teams are)

Flaws and counters
- Any overcommit model is subject to counter, we manage that by this 2-3-5 shape being reasonably congested in center (counter has to go wide, longer route) and having VDV plus both FBs being reasonably quick
- We concede less changes but often higher quality, hence Vicario is also critical
- Another counter is to mark us 1:1 (kills the fluidity and spaces that having players go into unusual positions for their roles creates) and lots of bricky little fouls (to break up our possession/rhythm game)

I think people generally have the weirdest sense of what it takes in football at the top level

- Spurs are currently on pace for best season in the last 4 years
- 11 points off the top, 11 points ahead of the 6th place team
- The top 3 teams have all had their manager for 4+ years, are extremely well drilled, have had 8+ windows of buying player to fit their system, have all spent way above their income levels.
- Spurs have new manager, ~7 new first team players and the worst injury season I've ever seen
- From day 1, we have been told that Ange's game is going to fall apart at times and we will get thumped? we have had very few really bad games (I can think of 3), none of which I'd consider a thumping/thrashing

Ange may still have things to do with us, but expecting anything more from this season?

You’ve quoted me - was your post aimed at me? I don’t know why - personally I was just trying to start an interesting conversation about tactics, not make or ask for judgements on our success so far under Ange. Incidentally, I’m delighted with Ange and our progress under him. I’m just curious about his use of full-backs and how it differs slightly from the other top teams.

 

[braineclipse]

And City has the same open problem we do, they get away with it (most times) by having Rodri (WC player) provide cover.

Look, real top sides today have a few general principles
- Maintain possession, if you can't blow your opponent away, you will eventually exhaust them
- Control the midfield
- Create overloads, get players into opposition box
- Break lines by passing/carrying ball through

This is different from the brick ETH does (or Conte did with us) where you give up either possession or control of midfield

The question is how does Ange do it?

4-3-3 out of possession, that moves to effectively 2-3-5 in attack (that's how we create the overloads and players in box)
We are way more fluid than City (not saying better), because players are told to go wherever the space is (they swap?)
Our main attacks are either wide player getting to byline and crossing (either cut back or across the goal) with opposite side wide player coming in at back post, or decisive pass strait through the middle.
Team is built generally around players that have speed, physical and technical attributes, we are also very good on counter/transition (something most top teams are)

Flaws and counters
- Any overcommit model is subject to counter, we manage that by this 2-3-5 shape being reasonably congested in center (counter has to go wide, longer route) and having VDV plus both FBs being reasonably quick
- We concede less changes but often higher quality, hence Vicario is also critical
- Another counter is to mark us 1:1 (kills the fluidity and spaces that having players go into unusual positions for their roles creates) and lots of bricky little fouls (to break up our possession/rhythm game)

I think people generally have the weirdest sense of what it takes in football at the top level

- Spurs are currently on pace for best season in the last 4 years
- 11 points off the top, 11 points ahead of the 6th place team
- The top 3 teams have all had their manager for 4+ years, are extremely well drilled, have had 8+ windows of buying player to fit their system, have all spent way above their income levels.
- Spurs have new manager, ~7 new first team players and the worst injury season I've ever seen
- From day 1, we have been told that Ange's game is going to fall apart at times and we will get thumped? we have had very few really bad games (I can think of 3), none of which I'd consider a thumping/thrashing

Ange may still have things to do with us, but expecting anything more from this season?

Agreed with all of that.

And worth remembering that for me at least we have some elite players that could play anywhere essentially without being significantly worse than the players at the very best clubs around.

But we also have players that definitely wouldn't be starters at the best clubs. And would be significantly worse than the players at the best clubs.

Add a bit more real top level (or really good and great fit to the system) to this mix then we'll see how far this system can take us. My bet would be on quite a lot further than where we are now at the very least.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Somewhat related to this thread, I keep a journal on my phone. This popped in my ‘on this day’ feed. Crazy how we’ve come in just one year.

View attachment 16977

That was the day I knew last year was a write off even though we actually won the game. Brighton absolutely dingdonged us and were robbed. Coming out of the ground that day, you could sense the crowd knew we got away with it thanks to Son, Kane and the ref and our season was likely done. 2 weeks later, Saudi Sportswashing Machine gave us what we knew was coming.

Agreed, considering many posters thought we were in for a transition season and they’d even be happy with qualifying for the conference league, whereas others had us mid table or a relegation battle… it seems a bit of a strange narrative (by some, not all) to be critical of a manager / system that’s got us 4th place (currently) on merit.

I don't think too many on here have been very critical of Ange. Unless he wins the league, and this goes for any manager, there will be discussion on what he might do better but the overall sentiment on here is pretty much unanimously positive. Some people, me included, have some concerns about Ange but I wouldn't swap him for anyone else and, even if I would, he has more than enough credit in the bank to make thinking of another manager sound utterly delusional.