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Ange’s system / formation

tommysvr said:
I'm relaxed. Because I put some effort and detail into a rebuke of Agbonlahor you think I'm agro or something?

You've said multiple times you don't think he'll win anything. That sounds like drawing a pretty big conclusion to me.
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He could do a very good job and still not win a trophy, there is a lot of imponderables that he can't control.
I won't judge his success on trophies.
 
Success will come if we give him the platform for success. Without that platform Ange could be the best coach the world has ever seen, it won't make a difference.
 
glasgowspur said:
He could do a very good job and still not win a trophy, there is a lot of imponderables that he can't control.
I won't judge his success on trophies.
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Exactly right, and I think this season the measure of success was simple: do we enjoy watching Spurs again? I'd say the vast majority of us would say yes.
 
Bishop said:
Success will come if we give him the platform for success. Without that platform Ange could be the best coach the world has ever seen, it won't make a difference.
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A really good point. Some spurs fans got carried away with our start to the season as if Ange had unlocked some magic secret to never losing another football match. We all become a bit guilty of seeing managers as Messiahs but even Pep needed a bundle of cash to push City on. Ditto Klopp at Liverpool.

As Ange said himself - he’s a football manager, not a magician.
 
Baleforce said:
I'd go with performance relative to the strength/weaknesses of us and the teams around us in the league.
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What's the difference? If we improve each season then we'll also improve relative to those teams around us, won't we?
 
jrh said:
What's the difference? If we improve each season then we'll also improve relative to those teams around us, won't we?
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Yes, but if a team around us has a really bad year I expect us to take advantage of that, and on the flip side, if 6 teams have an incredible season I wouldn’t cconsider 7th a failure.
 
Baleforce said:
Yes, but if a team around us has a really bad year I expect us to take advantage of that, and on the flip side, if 6 teams have an incredible season I wouldn’t cconsider 7th a failure.
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I think that's fair, and add in factors such as excessive investment too - although FFP does seem to have tempered that impact a bit
 
First season.

1. he needed to fully know the players he had, see how they fit the system. Work out who he really like, who he can depend on and where we need replacements. So first season is normally very hit and miss.

2. Our style of play has radically changed. From defensive to on the front foot all the time. its credit to his coaching that we picked this up so early and well. I give him full credit for turning us around, making me enjoy watching my team again and having some hope.

3. Defensively. yes we play with fire. I do think we should be scoring more goals. its the teams that sit deep on us that we struggle the most against. So we need a few players to unlock that. Maybe with more goals. we wont worry about the odd mess up. But some games its really bit us.

4. Summer. he will know where he wants to improve the team and Squad more than he did last year. We have made some amazing signings. Vicario, VDV, Udogie etc. I feel we are two very good players away from being a top team.

With FFP we are in a good spot. if we can get in the CL then there is added revenue next season. I still look at that chelski game. 5 defeats in a row and all those injuries. Win 3 of them and we are in the title hunt.

I look forward to watching my team again. Under Conte it was painful. Crazy defending or not. Im all in on Ange and his system. I remember when City first started under Pep, they were making defensive mistakes etc. We will get tighter as a unit for sure. More Drilled. More Relaxed and a couple more players.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
You cant judge relative strength
You can only judge how you end up
We end up 4th this season that’s a big improvement
Anything lower next season is regression
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I can judge relative strength, United are a garbage fire, finishing behind them would be a failure.
 
We have to sign or play a CF
The what how games have shown a huge void in the at we DONT occupy the oppositions CBs
We have son drifting deeper to get the ball and then no one in the box
Watching some videos of Celtic last season and it was so key that someone was there all the time
I’d be stunned now if we’re not looking at a focal point striker. I’d be worried actually because that will change Ange ball massively

The defensive lapses again worry me… a lot. But I can’t put that on the tactical approach most of the time. It’s just bad defending from players who are better than they show
 
If what my Celtic supporting mates say is true there is a couple of players that at the beginning of the season thought they would be golden who are going to be a little nervous.
And a couple more who can't adapt that will also be moved along.
Ange doesn't mess around.
 
glasgowspur said:
If what my Celtic supporting mates say is true there is a couple of players that at the beginning of the season thought they would be golden who are going to be a little nervous.
And a couple more who can't adapt that will also be moved along.
Ange doesn't mess around.
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Sounds perfect.

Although no doubt some would call it bad man management.

Tomato - tomato
 
elltrev said:
As we close in on Ange’s first full season, what are people’s thoughts on his system / formation?

Like most people, I love how attacking it is. But as time goes on, I find it a bit weird how it’s so focused on getting the full-backs into no. 10 areas. Wouldn’t we rather have the likes of Maddison in those areas? At the moment it feels like Maddison comes deep and Udogie fills that space, more often than not. I was hoping the system would be a bit more dynamic, with the opposition never knowing whether full-backs will be overlapping, dropping deep, or getting into no.10 spaces - rather than almost always doing the latter.

Looking at City by comparison, they seem to want to get a front five like we do, but they do it with the likes of De Bruyne being in the hole rather than Udogie, and their full-backs staying as defenders or central midfielders.
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And City has the same open problem we do, they get away with it (most times) by having Rodri (WC player) provide cover.

Look, real top sides today have a few general principles
- Maintain possession, if you can't blow your opponent away, you will eventually exhaust them
- Control the midfield
- Create overloads, get players into opposition box
- Break lines by passing/carrying ball through

This is different from the brick ETH does (or Conte did with us) where you give up either possession or control of midfield

The question is how does Ange do it?

4-3-3 out of possession, that moves to effectively 2-3-5 in attack (that's how we create the overloads and players in box)
We are way more fluid than City (not saying better), because players are told to go wherever the space is (they swap?)
Our main attacks are either wide player getting to byline and crossing (either cut back or across the goal) with opposite side wide player coming in at back post, or decisive pass strait through the middle.
Team is built generally around players that have speed, physical and technical attributes, we are also very good on counter/transition (something most top teams are)

Flaws and counters
- Any overcommit model is subject to counter, we manage that by this 2-3-5 shape being reasonably congested in center (counter has to go wide, longer route) and having VDV plus both FBs being reasonably quick
- We concede less changes but often higher quality, hence Vicario is also critical
- Another counter is to mark us 1:1 (kills the fluidity and spaces that having players go into unusual positions for their roles creates) and lots of bricky little fouls (to break up our possession/rhythm game)

I think people generally have the weirdest sense of what it takes in football at the top level

- Spurs are currently on pace for best season in the last 4 years
- 11 points off the top, 11 points ahead of the 6th place team
- The top 3 teams have all had their manager for 4+ years, are extremely well drilled, have had 8+ windows of buying player to fit their system, have all spent way above their income levels.
- Spurs have new manager, ~7 new first team players and the worst injury season I've ever seen
- From day 1, we have been told that Ange's game is going to fall apart at times and we will get thumped? we have had very few really bad games (I can think of 3), none of which I'd consider a thumping/thrashing

Ange may still have things to do with us, but expecting anything more from this season?
 
Raziel said:
And City has the same open problem we do, they get away with it (most times) by having Rodri (WC player) provide cover.

Look, real top sides today have a few general principles
- Maintain possession, if you can't blow your opponent away, you will eventually exhaust them
- Control the midfield
- Create overloads, get players into opposition box
- Break lines by passing/carrying ball through

This is different from the brick ETH does (or Conte did with us) where you give up either possession or control of midfield

The question is how does Ange do it?

4-3-3 out of possession, that moves to effectively 2-3-5 in attack (that's how we create the overloads and players in box)
We are way more fluid than City (not saying better), because players are told to go wherever the space is (they swap?)
Our main attacks are either wide player getting to byline and crossing (either cut back or across the goal) with opposite side wide player coming in at back post, or decisive pass strait through the middle.
Team is built generally around players that have speed, physical and technical attributes, we are also very good on counter/transition (something most top teams are)

Flaws and counters
- Any overcommit model is subject to counter, we manage that by this 2-3-5 shape being reasonably congested in center (counter has to go wide, longer route) and having VDV plus both FBs being reasonably quick
- We concede less changes but often higher quality, hence Vicario is also critical
- Another counter is to mark us 1:1 (kills the fluidity and spaces that having players go into unusual positions for their roles creates) and lots of bricky little fouls (to break up our possession/rhythm game)

I think people generally have the weirdest sense of what it takes in football at the top level

- Spurs are currently on pace for best season in the last 4 years
- 11 points off the top, 11 points ahead of the 6th place team
- The top 3 teams have all had their manager for 4+ years, are extremely well drilled, have had 8+ windows of buying player to fit their system, have all spent way above their income levels.
- Spurs have new manager, ~7 new first team players and the worst injury season I've ever seen
- From day 1, we have been told that Ange's game is going to fall apart at times and we will get thumped? we have had very few really bad games (I can think of 3), none of which I'd consider a thumping/thrashing

Ange may still have things to do with us, but expecting anything more from this season?
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Yeh agree with all of all of this, in terms of reactionism I think we have some of the funniest in league (not being specific to this place BTW before that's jumped on) but rarely does a week go by when I don't see or hear "why can't we be more like Arsenal or Liverpool" well here we are, doing exactly what they have and as you say it's year 1. We generally accepted before and when Ange was appointed it would be a project and bumps.in Road, here we are, now there are a chorus of negatives because we have exactly that, again despite the trends showing improvements.

I mention reactionism because the idea also that to every bad performance, even wins I have seen ideas that Ange should change formations but in reality when you look at it who does? We all know how City l, Arsenal and Liverpool are going to play, just they are better because they have better and again have had longer to Evolve, that's not to say Ange can't adapt and tweak but if people think managers at that level make wholesale changes then they are not paying attention. Additionally given the nature of the way we play we have a level of fluidity.

All said our ability to get back into game, although not ideal, it's not a fluke, our play and system of attack means we can blow poorer teams away and is also contrary to the "we struggle to break sides down"....because we do it and do it in waves, there just is no utopia where teams.manage it all the time, even for the better sides.

Improvements are needed but for me.comes in form of better players and progress, I don't think our defence is poor, need to keep ball better in dangerous areas and work harder and we are actually compact when we do.

All in all B+ season on pitch

A+ off it culturally....
 
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