Ange in or out?

[billyiddo]

I don't actually think Ange is or has become a divisive topic at all - i think we're just all waiting for the inevitable to happen come the end of the season. There's a small debate over whether winning the EL is enough to keep him in the job but even that seems half hearted

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I don't actually think Ange is or has become a divisive topic at all - i think we're jist allwaiting for the inevitable come the end of the season. There's a small debate over whether winning the EL is enough to keep him in the job but even that seems half hearted

It’s not even a debate imo
No matter what happens, losing 21/22 league games is sackable for any manager
And I say that as one of the most patient ones with ange

 

[thfcsteff]

Put simply Steff -yes. Because, although I can see you have perspective, plenty on here seem to have lost theirs. Hence the passionate defence of him, the comments about him being the best manager in 20-30 years if we win the EL, the comparisons belittling Poch's achievements, and from posters who I have a lot of respect for too. I have no idea how the club will view a win next week. I don't know if the euphoria will blind them to what's happened this season. Because tbh they've allowed Ange more rope than he should have been given already. So what's to say they won't give him more? I don't want to be negative but I can't believe some of the stuff I'm reading.

I have to say, thankfully I am not seeing those same comments. I can only imagine they are an overreaction to the negative comments regarding him, much like we see in the world today generally where dialectics and discussion have been obliterated.

Anyone belittling Poch's achievements are either the same people who belittled them before, or simply never understood the holistic journey he took us on. As you know, I have little time for it ;-)

I am flabbergasted that anyone could say 'best manger in 20 -30 years if we win' because the facts and stats don't support it, neither does the eye test. I personally believe he has been very unlucky and that he has also contributed some poor decisions to the mess we've found ourselves in this season (mostly due to the unprecedented nature of what we dealt with). However I think it is exceptionally clear that his time with us is at an end. Levy will know that the decision will not come with wide-ranging derision as many supporters want tom say bye bye, so I believe you can rest easily and he will be moving on/moved on.

I posted somewhere that no-one could be expected to want to stick around in such an atmosphere, and I think it was @Bishop who said those words suggested I thought he should stay/deserved to stay? I'll take this moment to clarify; no, I don't believe in this set-up and with our policy he can go any further with us, and yes, I believe as a human being he has taken some awful abuse, the sort of which would leave any sane person considering whether they could take it all on again.

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't actually think Ange is or has become a divisive topic at all - i think we're just all waiting for the inevitable to happen come the end of the season. There's a small debate over whether winning the EL is enough to keep him in the job but even that seems half hearted

That's most certainly what it should be.

One game. 90+ minutes.

 

[Surfless]

It’s not even a debate imo
No matter what happens, losing 21/22 league games is sackable for any manager
And I say that as one of the most patient ones with ange

Likewise, he's got too many detractors now, his stock is low due to his media approach coupled with the results and the fact that the club is looking to move Munn on and reinstate Paratici tells me we won't have Big Ange for much longer. Which does ina way make me sad.

I sincerely hope we can beat utd to give him a legacy, but Kulu and Madders and Bergvall missing the final means we need to be reliant on Bentancur and Porro to create and Biss having a monster of a game.

 

[glasgowspur]

I don't actually think Ange is or has become a divisive topic at all - i think we're just all waiting for the inevitable to happen come the end of the season. There's a small debate over whether winning the EL is enough to keep him in the job but even that seems half hearted

I also don't see a debate, almost everyone thinks he will go in the summer and that that is the correct decision.
Just because some of us refuse to aim schoolground insults at him doesn't mean we are defending him.
His league record is not good enough, he should be replaced.

 

[thfcsteff]

It’s not even a debate imo
No matter what happens, losing 21/22 league games is sackable for any manager
And I say that as one of the most patient ones with ange

Indeed.
For me, the most interesting question when this season is done, will be why the decision was taken to retain him at Xmas when it was clear we had some injuries however we were still coat-tailing a potential top 5 spot? The decision-makers deserve far more scrutiny than they're receiving...

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Likewise, he's got too many detractors now, his stock is low due to his media approach coupled with the results and the fact that the club is looking to move Munn on and reinstate Paratici tells me we won't have Big Ange for much longer. Which does ina way make me sad.

I sincerely hope we can beat utd to give him a legacy, but Kulu and Madders and Bergvall missing the final means we need to be reliant on Bentancur and Porro to create and Biss having a monster of a game.

A legacy?

What the hell.

His legacy is one of nearly getting us relegated and watching more defeats in a league season then I can ever remember and winning a devalued European competition will not change that. Have you watched us this season????

 

[thfcsteff]

Likewise, he's got too many detractors now, his stock is low due to his media approach coupled with the results and the fact that the club is looking to move Munn on and reinstate Paratici tells me we won't have Big Ange for much longer. Which does ina way make me sad.

I sincerely hope we can beat utd to give him a legacy, but Kulu and Madders and Bergvall missing the final means we need to be reliant on Bentancur and Porro to create and Biss having a monster of a game.

I think what the injuries do is really force a hand in terms of how we approach the game. It is one game we have to win. I expect him to do anything to win, including shifting formation and approach to suit the circumstances. I suppose the one thing he might try is Bentancur as an advanced creative player a la Madders, that would put a lot of weight on Bissouma to have the game of his career, and Sarr to be the tireless legs and engine. As long as Porro and Destiny continue to be more reserved in Europe, then we could certainly have an impact that way.

The wildcard would be to see him play Spence and Porro, with Porro, Bentancur and Bissouma as our midfield; that would be incredibly brave and probably wreckless. But it is 90 minutes? And no-one would see it coming...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Indeed.
For me, the most interesting question when this season is done, will be why the decision was taken to retain him at Xmas when it was clear we had some injuries however we were still coat-tailing a potential top 5 spot? The decision-makers deserve far more scrutiny than they're receiving...

I think the Christmas decision was sensible
He had injuries and needed time and he was still delivering in the cups
Time hasn’t been a healer so we move on

 

[thfcsteff]

I think we have played some very entertaining football over the last 2 years. We have played some naive stuff as well. This season we were decimated by injuries and then prioritised the Cup. Would you honestly rather finish (say) 7th with no trophy than finish 16th or 17th and win the Europa League?

I think you're stating a truth whenyou say 7th and no trophy, because that's roughly what we would've got had we dumped out of the EL.

Regarding Ange, I feel that the irrespective of all angles on the discussion, the one which stands strongest is that the way we are set up, the expectations we have, the model we are pursuing versus the purchases we make re: players means that Ange has reached the end of his era with us. Clearly his system/philosophy needed a couple more experienced players in the squad, and squad players of a certain calibre. As has been said by some, resiging Werner at 170k a week versus finding a way to buy Eze, and not getting Gallagher done in either of two windows (Boehly would've sold to us he doesn't give a brick) are statements. It's not about agreeing or disagreeing with the policies, I'm just saying what we can all see. That we have a philosphy in place and it is based on young speculation, not even blending that with the occasional experienced signing. Ange was brought in as part of a root and branch. I think circumstances and operating procedures -plus let's face it, some polarising and obstreperous moments- mean the time has come.

If we win on Wednesday, it should be royally celebrated and he should receive the appropriate credit for heloing get it done despite some of the worst adversity I have seen hit our club. We should also wish him well and let him leave on a 'high'...I am NOT excited about some of the mooted replacements FWIW, however all energy for now goes into WED 21st, so COYS!

 

[thfcsteff]

I think the Christmas decision was sensible
He had injuries and needed time and he was still delivering in the cups
Time hasn’t been a healer so we move on

Agreed, yet we all commented how out of character it was...perhaps the club were trying to give the model a chance, in which case kudos.

 

[Raziel]

It's a great point of discussion.

I think the journey was largely sentenced to 'bedding in' when we aggressively persued the youth signing policy. There is no doubt we have ended up having to play Bergvall and Gray far far more than we wanted to in terms of senior development, as for Moore he would've been in U-21s with the occasional appearance on the bench.

It is somewhat sad that the club chose Postecoglu to spearheads this 'root and branch' change within the club. There's a huge argument for saying they should've gone all out and got someone like Amorim - young, charming, defiant, sure of himself - and perhaps it would've been different. He would most certainly have given us a 'figure' to believe in. Instead, we went with Ange. I suspect choice dictated that to an extent.

Next season we will see players like Bergvall and Deki ascend fully to leaders. Gray will be a 'bigger' presence. We will finally see the scratch notes of a narrative imagined yet haphazardly executed start to blossom as the young players gel more and more under the leadership of (hopefully) a younger, more dynamic manager. That's the hope. Ange has done his time, and there is no more he can do/not do.

You raised 2019 so I have to go there again. First off, EVERYTHING you say about it is bang-on. I will add that we were on the doorstep of doing the impossible -winning the biggest club prize in world football- without blood or VC money. What Poch did inside and outside the club was beyond incredible, and as someone who was a regular during the Burky years, I can say I never felt as much pride in who we were as during those years with him. I shed many tears that night in Madrid; a small piece of my footballing me broke. I shed further tears when he was sacked, because I knew we'd never have such an opportunity again in terms of the narrative you talked about. A bigger piece of my footballing me broke that night, and was further bruised by the appt the next day.

Everyone defines success differently. For some it's trophies only, for others it's more (or less depending on perspective). I never felt more pride in this club than during those 2016/17/18/19 seasons. That final season at the Lane was incredible. We were beautiful and the story was poetry in motion, led by a poet who created the verse we had craved and needed (Jol probably got closest before him during ENIC's time, he could modulate with us in that way albeithe was also a bit of a grifter).

And that's where fans will have disagreements

- I don't disagree with anyone who thinks Ange was a risk too far
- But it's comments like Amorim? at least Ange had 10 good games and got us 5th, Amorim has been objectively worse in every way than ETH or OGS, good press conferences aside. Real risk he's even less adaptable than Ange

I actually don't have a problem with Ange's ideas, and bedding in a new team, young players with an attacking policy, a viewpoint to fluidity of movement in a game that has become increasingly less dynamic, more rigid, more athlete over artist. It's the details of the system and it's lack of protection that has been exposed at the highest level and his inability to systematically adapt (vs. just be pragmatic in the cup) is the issue.

The next manager (right pick), with just a little more tactical/defensive nouse could surprise a lot of people.

 

[Baleforce]

It’s like a maths exam.

Ange might well submit the correct answer of CL qualification at the end of the season.

But the working out has been all wrong.

So he still gets a mark of zero.

 

[Muttley]

Disagree on Kane, but you can't resist getting another swipe at him whenever possible.
He was run into the ground, played with injuries, and carrying the team for years meant he couldn't go flat out every single game. Hugo a leader? About as much a leader as Son. Dele, Rose, and Walker to a lesser extent could barely lead themselves never mind a team. I guess we have totally different ideas on what a leader is.

If Romero took responsibility on the pitch he wouldn't have gone wandering and been responsible for so many goals.

One point I do agree is that the current squad needs patience.

So for the record, I'm not having a swipe at Kane. I'm offering my opinion on him.

I'm not saying you're having a swipe about Lloris. No different.

I could accuse Hugo of a lot, but not giving less than 100% every time he pulled on the shirt is not one of them. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about the latter years Kane. Love both these guys in their early Spurs careers though.

My favourite modern day captain is Jordan Henderson. None better in my mind.

 

[thfcsteff]

And that's where fans will have disagreements

- I don't disagree with anyone who thinks Ange was a risk too far
- But it's comments like Amorim? at least Ange had 10 good games and got us 5th, Amorim has been objectively worse in every way than ETH or OGS, good press conferences aside. Real risk he's even less adaptable than Ange

I actually don't have a problem with Ange's ideas, and bedding in a new team, young players with an attacking policy, a viewpoint to fluidity of movement in a game that has become increasingly less dynamic, more rigid, more athlete over artist. It's the details of the system and it's lack of protection that has been exposed at the highest level and his inability to systematically adapt (vs. just be pragmatic in the cup) is the issue.

The next manager (right pick), with just a little more tactical/defensive nouse could surprise a lot of people.

It's important to consider that the Amorim I'm talking about is not the Amorim who is at Man Utd. I am talking about the initial choice two years ago. His inflexibility is, indeed, noted. I am talking about his overall power and approach to the situation. It is useless speculation of course, but again, important to note I am talking about Sporting Amorim (FWIW he would not have been my choice).

 

[thfcsteff]

A legacy?

What the hell.

His legacy is one of nearly getting us relegated and watching more defeats in a league season then I can ever remember and winning a devalued European competition will not change that. Have you watched us this season????

His legacy will be twofold, but in the end -years down the line- nobody will remember the awful league form IF he wins the thing. It will be a fact even you cannot deny him.

 

[Lilbaz]

His legacy will be twofold, but in the end -years down the line- nobody will remember the awful league form IF he wins the thing. It will be a fact even you cannot deny him.

Everyone will remember the league form. We're not goldfish.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Palace were not prioritising the FA Cup Final 4 days before our cup final by smashing us at our place then? So kind of a nonsense argument but let's say that's true. West Ham (who have spent a fortune) and Man United (likewise) are down there with us, so we can't all use that excuse of other priorities. It is a valid argument that the general levels of the league have dramatically increased and Spurs would be in serious danger of going down next season, especially if Ange prioritised Champions League the same way.


That really is burying your head deeply in the sand. This isn't a "record" its his second season. There is nothing to suggest we are on some two season spin cycle of 5th, trophy, 5th, trophy. We are on a regression cycle if anything, meaning next season = worse.

I'll be sticking to Ange out if that's the best anyone can come up with. Something has got to change significantly, and it has to be the coaching paradigm. Frank, Glasner, Poch (I know, world cup). For me all 3 of them have this current squad at least top half

Palace pretty much played their first team. We played only 3 players likely to start next Weds (though one of them now injured).

There is equally nothing to suggest that we're not on a two season spin cycle. Season 1, Ange didn't have too bad an injury problem and we finished 5th. This season we had incredibly bad injury problems but prioritised the Europa and are now in the final.

If we don't win the final then Ange will rightly be sacked. 17th and no trophy is not acceptable. If we managed to win next weds then his achievement is massive and our first European trophy for 41 years and only the second trophy of the ENIC era means he deserves to keep his job.

 

[Baleforce]

His legacy will be twofold, but in the end -years down the line- nobody will remember the awful league form IF he wins the thing. It will be a fact even you cannot deny him.

I dunno, it's been that bad that I think the two would always go hand in hand.

Look at Ramos.