Ange departs

[DTA]

No I don’t think so
If they had hit the post and had some unlucky chances I’d say maybe
I didn’t see that
It reminded me of a boxer landing the right punches vs one throwing haymakers (or in their case maguires)
Everything United tried we had a clear answer for
People hated it because it was about control
We controlled the variables so nothing else could affect the game

How about their 3 chances I mentioned above? How about Shaw’s ‘involvement’ in our goal?

We are talking about cms here and there which would have resulted in a different result.

 

[Bishop]

I just don’t really buy that Amorim ‘deserves’ to be backed any more than Ange does just because he came mid season. To go along with your original line, either it’s tactically suspect or it isn’t. If Amorim gets a pass for coming mid season, I could argue Ange deserves a pass for winning a trophy and never losing the dressing room, because he was making decisions and holding together a culture that would have seen us into his third season.

At the end of the day it just comes down to faith, Ange has always asked for ‘true believers’ because to play his way, to believe in the benefits it ultimately gives you, requires real bravery and a confidence to do things differently. I really liked his fit with Spurs because if he have any intention of actually challenging for titles we need to do things differently under ENIC. But his risk taking threatens their security of predictable revenue.

As for which players or which tactics…honestly yes under Ange, I felt we would have gotten back to top 6 minimum under him, as we would any other manager. But I wanted to see Ange with a full season with a normal amount of injuries, a more experienced squad with more depth and a culture strengthened through winning. If we could play our preferred centre backs more than ten times in the league. If we didn’t go basically three months 11 players out and a game every 3 days.

I ultimately just believe and have faith that having got through this tough period, we would have reached the point that usually happens with his clubs. The players get used to the physical demands. They are comfortable taking extreme risks. The momentum builds. We probably needed a better VDV back up, and a few other signings here and there. But I think we had a great first 11 and a squad that was getting close. We just literally never saw a consistent few months where he could actually be said to be implementing it.

I said in the previous pages that I don’t believe there is some magic combination of idealism vs pragmatism that is a cheat code. It’s all just choices with trade offs. I think it’s about allowing a vision to take shape and get implemented so we can see it in its full form. We never really saw it with Ange.

Ange got a pass for the tactical naivety from me in his first season also. Take the Chelsea match I was proud of our efforts and his approach but 60ish games later I needed to see some progression to his ideas and the implementation of them. That you can't see the difference between a man coming in mid season being in charge for 25 games and a man who has had 2 full seasons and 4 transfer windows encompassing 101 games I find somewhat amusing. A season is the minimum any coach should get, I'd argue two seasons at that. Ange had that time Anorin hasn't yet. If United form and results stay as they have under him then him getting the chop would be expected imo.

You're like many others on here you think the first 11 is already great so considering that. How do we actually improve if Ange is fine and the squad is fine. Something must explain the abject results and performances?

In terms of his vision I think we saw enough to know the quality of player he requires is not within our orbit and he wasn't able to match his system to the players we actually have.

 

[Gazza]

How about their 3 chances I mentioned above? How about Shaw’s ‘involvement’ in our goal?

We are talking about cms here and there which would have resulted in a different result.

How about getting lucky enough to play fodder like United in the final who actually probably deserved to win the game

 

[Bedfordspurs]

How about their 3 chances I mentioned above? How about Shaw’s ‘involvement’ in our goal?

We are talking about cms here and there which would have resulted in a different result.

Shaws involvement came because we did something right … a proper cross into danger area and he was under pressure because our man made the run and got the touch
CMs matter. And we did all the right things in that moment including how we won the ball in the first place
We made the margins our own by doing it all right
Petty much they exact opposite of the CL final
I don’t remember a free header from Fernandes so I’d have to see it (I’ve seen the game back twice now)
The one across the goal was much further than you think and if on target it hits a player IMO

 

[Gazza]

Ange got a pass for the tactical naivety from me in his first season also. Take the Chelsea match I was proud of our efforts and his approach but 60ish games later I needed to see some progression to his ideas and the implementation of them. That you can't see the difference between a man coming in mid season being in charge for 25 games and a man who has had 2 full seasons and 4 transfer windows encompassing 101 games I find somewhat amusing. A season is the minimum any coach should get, I'd argue two seasons at that. Ange had that time Anorin hasn't yet. If United form and results stay as they have under him then him getting the chop would be expected imo.

You're like many others on here you think the first 11 is already great so considering that. How do we actually improve if Ange is fine and the squad is fine. Something must explain the abject results and performances?

In terms of his vision I think we saw enough to know the quality of player he requires is not within our orbit and he wasn't able to match his system to the players we actually have.

I find it baffling that people wanted Ange to succeed because all he needed was a fully fit first team to win … he had that at times and we still looked a step above guff . And also in reality when does that usually happen?

 

[Gazza]

Shaws involvement came because we did something right … a proper cross into danger area and he was under pressure because our man made the run and got the touch
CMs matter. And we did all the right things in that moment including how we won the ball in the first place
We made the margins our own by doing it all right
Petty much they exact opposite of the CL final
I don’t remember a free header from Fernandes so I’d have to see it (I’ve seen the game back twice now)
The one across the goal was much further than you think and if on target it hits a player IMO

Watch the game a few times more and you may realise that United actually should have scored a few themselves. We defended decently against a poor United team who still caused us problems

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I see this argument. I just think that, again like at all of his clubs, the injuries usually work themselves out once the players are adapted. And if our squad thought seriously that Ange was putting them at risk, he wouldn’t be as beloved as he clearly is.

Again for me it goes back to needing to have faith in the idea. We gave up on it for ENIC reasons, and we’ll never know what it could have been.

Ange is a great motivator and communicator...that can override whether you think he's asking too much of you and at the extreme end risking you body and health.

The PL is a different beast, it's relentless (that's before you even get to the European schedule), there's very little 'down time' in games. Teams even try hard when they're in mid table obscurity FFS. Maybe that was something he only really got when he witnessed it first hand.
Perhaps the output required to maintain his tactics in the face of that just doesn't compute. Failing bodies are evidence of that.
And if you don't want to compromise or adjust, because 'fudge....this is how I play', your then between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Robspur12]

But we did win
I was there
We didn’t need to blow united apart because they all executed the plan
I didn’t see good fortune, I saw a real execution of a strategy
The good fortune I assume you mean the clearance off the line from the one time a spurs player made a mistake (Vic)
1-0 in a cup game is as good as 10 - 0 because it’s a cup
So many other managers have came here and failed in the games that mattered for so many reasons (many we won’t know) and many had better squads and players
Ange did something they couldn’t do
Doesn’t mean he shouldn’t have gone but does mean you can’t just ignore those performances that mattered too

Other managers failed in finals where we were against better teams. Like many have said grateful that Ange got us over the line, but this was the first final where 2 teams were evenly matched. I ask myself would Ange have beaten Ferguson's Man Utd in 2009, Mourinho 's future champions in 2015, Klopp's outstanding Liverpool in 2019 or Pep's Emirates Marketing Project in 2021? I don't think so. To many that doesn't matter in relation to this year's trophy win, and it doesn't really. But it is important to contextualize this "winning mentality" or "getting us over the line" narrative around Ange and his sacking.

 

[DTA]

Shaws involvement came because we did something right … a proper cross into danger area and he was under pressure because our man made the run and got the touch
CMs matter. And we did all the right things in that moment including how we won the ball in the first place
We made the margins our own by doing it all right
Petty much they exact opposite of the CL final
I don’t remember a free header from Fernandes so I’d have to see it (I’ve seen the game back twice now)
The one across the goal was much further than you think and if on target it hits a player IMO

I already mentioned it was a beautiful move by us, but that doesn’t discount the luck it still needed in ‘shaw’s’ involvement.

I loved that night. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t see that luck played a part in us winning.

As it does in a lot of finals and semis

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Other managers failed in finals where we were against better teams. Like many have said grateful that Ange got us over the line, but this was the first final where 2 teams were evenly matched. I ask myself would Ange have beaten Ferguson's Man Utd in 2009, Mourinho 's future champions in 2015, Klopp's outstanding Liverpool in 2019 or Pep's Emirates Marketing Project in 2021? I don't think so. Too many that doesn't matter in relation to this year's trophy win, and it doesn't really. But it is important to contextualize this "winning mentality" or "getting us over the line" narrative around Ange and his sacking.

The players believed we would win
They knew they were set up to win
And they did it
I’m not sure if was the same in the other finals ….
I know for the CL final we didn’t do warm weather training… pool did and their players said it was a game changer … we were unprepared
How many more examples are there like that. As fans we don’t know
But you also have to look at semis as well as finals where we have failed
That doesn’t excuse the league form but it highlights how hard it is to win something at this club IMO

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I already mentioned it was a beautiful move by us, but that doesn’t discount the luck it still needed in ‘shaw’s’ involvement.

I loved that night. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t see that luck played a part in us winning.

As it does in a lot of finals and semis

True
Luck is always a part I guess
But we went lucky IMO
We were better prepared with a better plan and a better set up.
We knew what they would do and they couldnt deal with what we did
That was Ange choosing the tactical set up (I assume with his coaches) and the players executing it
We didn’t have a sissoko handball moment
We didn’t have a Kane unfit moment
Sonny as wing back
Penalty shoot out misses
It was like a mayweather fight

 

[Bishop]

The players believed we would win
They knew they were set up to win
And they did it
I’m not sure if was the same in the other finals ….
I know for the CL final we didn’t do warm weather training… pool did and their players said it was a game changer … we were unprepared
How many more examples are there like that. As fans we don’t know
But you also have to look at semis as well as finals where we have failed
That doesn’t excuse the league form but it highlights how hard it is to win something at this club IMO

United are brick. Beating them is no great shakes honestly. We had done it 3 times already this season. The players had good reason to be confident, they can't score and other than a spawny moment they really don't offer a lot offensively.

So sure we can say this team got it done but it didn't face the calibre of opposition our previous semi and final teams did. Who knows how they would have dared playing this United. The 2011 CC win was more impressive in that respect because that Chelsea were still a good to great side and we won by outplaying them and having the quality moments in the match.

 

[Robspur12]

The players believed we would win
They knew they were set up to win
And they did it
I’m not sure if was the same in the other finals ….

You don't know that was the case in this final anymore than any other final, unless you were in the changing room before the match . And if you were I doth my cap to you Sir.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

United are brick. Beating them is no great shakes honestly. We had done it 3 times already this season. The players had good reason to be confident, they can't score and other than a spawny moment they really don't offer a lot offensively.

So sure we can say this team got it done but it didn't face the calibre of opposition our previous semi and final teams did. Who knows how they would have dared playing this United. The 2011 CC win was more impressive in that respect because that Chelsea were still a good to great side and we won by outplaying them and having the quality moments in the match.

Yep we had beaten them
Yet many fans said we couldn’t do it again because of that
The key was we did because we did everything right for once
Can only beat who you face
Shame we fishy get it right when got knocked out previously in that cup against inferior sides… many times

 

[glasgowspur]

Other managers failed in finals where we were against better teams. Like many have said grateful that Ange got us over the line, but this was the first final where 2 teams were evenly matched. I ask myself would Ange have beaten Ferguson's Man Utd in 2009, Mourinho 's future champions in 2015, Klopp's outstanding Liverpool in 2019 or Pep's Emirates Marketing Project in 2021? I don't think so. To many that doesn't matter in relation to this year's trophy win, and it doesn't really. But it is important to contextualize this "winning mentality" or "getting us over the line" narrative around Ange and his sacking.

Really, you're comparing us against a generational manager and team, a club that hired the best up and coming manager in the world and gave him a blank cheque book, a Liverpool juggernaut and city who cleaned up the trophies in English football?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You don't know that was the case in this final anymore than any other final, unless you were in the changing room before the match . And if you were I doth my cap to you Sir.

The players have spoken about it quite publicly
Just like the pool players did after the CL final
Players do talk about things especially after a big win. They tend to highlight what they think was a differentiator

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Really, you're comparing us against a generational manager and team, a club that hired the best up and coming manager in the world and gave him a blank cheque book, a Liverpool juggernaut and city who cleaned up the trophies in English football?

This is Tottenham
The club that lost a massive lead to a team with a manager in prison

 

[glasgowspur]

This is Tottenham
The club that lost a massive lead to a team with a manager in prison

Were England lucky to win the WC in 66 because Pele got hacked out of the tournament, because they didn't meet the '70 Brazil team, or the' 78 Argentina or the Spain team of whatever year it was, or that it was a dodgy linesman running the line that day?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Were England lucky to win the WC in 66 because Pele got hacked out of the tournament, because they didn't meet the '70 Brazil team, or the' 78 Argentina or the Spain team of whatever year it was, or that it was a dodgy linesman running the line that day?

Clearly
I mean did that goal cross the line

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

True
Luck is always a part I guess
But we went lucky IMO
We were better prepared with a better plan and a better set up.
We knew what they would do and they couldnt deal with what we did
That was Ange choosing the tactical set up (I assume with his coaches) and the players executing it
We didn’t have a sissoko handball moment
We didn’t have a Kane unfit moment
Sonny as wing back
Penalty shoot out misses
It was like a mayweather fight

It didn't feel lucky to me. Nothing out of the ordinary anyway.

It's probably similar to how Liverpool fans felt when they beat us in Madrid ie 'Yeah, job done, nothing spectacular, didn't need to be'