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Ange departs

Ange departs.

  • In

    Votes: 81 42.6%

  • Out

    Votes: 109 57.4%
  • Total voters
    190
Surfless said:
Youre probably not privy to my perspective, but I've got a 20 plus year association with this site, and have acted on a number of occasions as a link between the club and GG - less so these days since Paul (Scaramanga) took the site on, but still I've spoken to the club, mainly Donna Cullen for years. This has in the main made me someone who falls on the side of the owners, rather than being part of the levy out crowd, but increasingly in the last few years I've been becoming less supportive. The way Poch was treated, the ridiculous furloughing of staff during COVID, the dismissal of mourinho a week before a final, the stupidity in hiring Conte, who was never ever going to succeed without a bottomless pit of money, the way Nuno was brought in and cast aside, and the farce of going through 5 candidates til we got to Ange, all point to someone who might be great at business, but bizarly after 25 years still doesn't get the sport.

I tolerated all of that, but right now the anger I feel towards our chairman for sacking the guy who just won our first trophy in 17 years in a season where 85% of the first team squad has been injured for more than 2 months, most at the same time, isn't dissipating.

Ange did what Jose, Conte and Poch failed to do. What Hoddle and Redknapp and Villas Boas failed to achieve. And Daniel booted him to the curb, in doing so making us the laughing stock of football, and the pin up boys for the money over success modern ethos.


I am about glory and we had it and it's been tarnished and taken away from us.
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Exactly this.
I totally appreciate what Levy has done for this club, but we should be treating people better.
There's the multitude of great players who never got the send off they deserved.
Then the managers who weren't given a chance:
Jol, tell him if he doesn't get CL he's out, don't sack him at half time.
Redknapp, tell him he needs to make a public apology for dropping his knickers to the England job, or he's out.
Poch, tell him to step away after the CL, and come back refreshed, when we've got money to spend.
Mourinho, tell him he needs to win the final to keep his job.
Nuno, good GHod we messed him around.
Ange, can't see any reason why we couldn't say, if you're not within touching distance of top 5 by Xmas, you're out. What a way to treat someone who did the thing everyone wanted, including Levy.
 
Surfless said:
Youre probably not privy to my perspective, but I've got a 20 plus year association with this site, and have acted on a number of occasions as a link between the club and GG - less so these days since Paul (Scaramanga) took the site on, but still I've spoken to the club, mainly Donna Cullen for years. This has in the main made me someone who falls on the side of the owners, rather than being part of the levy out crowd, but increasingly in the last few years I've been becoming less supportive. The way Poch was treated, the ridiculous furloughing of staff during COVID, the dismissal of mourinho a week before a final, the stupidity in hiring Conte, who was never ever going to succeed without a bottomless pit of money, the way Nuno was brought in and cast aside, and the farce of going through 5 candidates til we got to Ange, all point to someone who might be great at business, but bizarly after 25 years still doesn't get the sport.

I tolerated all of that, but right now the anger I feel towards our chairman for sacking the guy who just won our first trophy in 17 years in a season where 85% of the first team squad has been injured for more than 2 months, most at the same time, isn't dissipating.

Ange did what Jose, Conte and Poch failed to do. What Hoddle and Redknapp and Villas Boas failed to achieve. And Daniel booted him to the curb, in doing so making us the laughing stock of football, and the pin up boys for the money over success modern ethos.


I am about glory and we had it and it's been tarnished and taken away from us.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.

In my opinion, no manager can survive 22 loses in a PL season. I don’t care what the circumstances are, to be honest - it’s just not good enough. Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, City would all sack a manager with that record, trophy or not. Southampton, Ipswich and Leicester would all do the same.

Added to that, there was no developing style of play; if anything, we were regressing. Ange won a trophy by playing a style of football which was the antithesis of what he preached. For me, he didn’t respect the fans; he told us prior to the City game that he would never sacrifice a game under any circumstances, but recently told us that he ditched the PL this season in January (I gave up going in December because I couldn’t bear to watch his style of football any longer, but I’d have been mightily tinkled off to hear this a couple of weeks ago were I a season ticket holder, or someone who had shelled out £70 or £80 to attend a game). He cupped his ear and waved in a mocking manner at our away fans. He occasionally picked fights with them. He had an excuse for every occasion and they shifted like the sands as the months, and the endless defeats, passed.

We employed Lange to take a stats based approach. If that’s the case, you simply can’t allow Ange to continue. The club would be assuming that he’s going to change his style of playing; his training methods; and, essentially, who he was. Taking a chance on all of that is not a sensible way to run a club (and a multi-billion pound business). And if you’re relying on that level of change, it’s surely much more sensible to employ someone else.

I actually think he now walks away in the best position he could. Much more wealthy, his stock reasonably high (watch where he ends up to see how highly he’s actually viewed by other clubs), and having got the trophy monkey off our back, for which I will be eternally grateful.

Personally (and I absolutely accept everyone will have their own take), I’m now looking forward to a new start, in the belief that I can attend PL games with plenty of hope again, and actually enjoy watching us play.
 
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Mikey10 said:
Fair enough.

In my opinion, no manager can survive 22 loses in a PL season. I don’t care what the circumstances are, to be honest - it’s just not good enough. Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, City would all sack a manager with that record, trophy or not. Southampton, Ipswich and Leicester would all do the same.

Added to that, there was no developing style of play; if anything, we were regressing. Ange won a trophy by playing a style of football which was the antithesis of what he preached. For me, he didn’t respect the fans; he told us prior to the City game that he would never sacrifice a game under any circumstances, but recently told us that he ditched the PL this season in January (I gave up going in December because I couldn’t bear to watch his style of football any longer, but I’d have been mightily tinkled off to hear this a couple of weeks ago were I a season ticket holder, or someone who had shelled out £70 or £80 to attend a game). He cupped his ear and waved in a mocking manner at our away fans. He occasionally picked fights with them. He had an excuse for every occasion and they shifted like the sands as the months, and the endless defeats, passed.

We employed Lange to take a stats based approach. If that’s the case, you simply can’t allow Ange to continue. The club would be assuming that he’s going to change his style of playing; his training methods; and, essentially, who he was. Taking a chance on all of that is not a sensible way to run a club (and a multi-billion pound business). And if you’re relying on that level of change, it’s surely much more sensible to employ someone else.

I actually think he now walks away in the best position he could. Much more wealthy, his stock reasonably high (watch where he ends up to see how highly he’s actually viewed by other clubs), and having got the trophy monkey off our back, for which I will be eternally grateful.

Personally (and I absolutely accept everyone will have their own take), I’m now looking forward to a new start, and the hope that I can attend PL games with plenty of hope again, and actually enjoy watching us play.
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That's a great read and some valid reasons for the opposite view. I respect what you think and I agree that the league was abhorrent. But how many of those defeats were linked to us being missing our entire back five? And how many were forgone to further our European games?
 
Surfless said:
That's a great read and some valid reasons for the opposite view. I respect what you think and I agree that the league was abhorrent. But how many of those defeats were linked to us being missing our entire back five? And how many were forgone to further our European games?
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When we're missing players that often, why couldn't he simply make adjustments to compensate? Why keep trying to play in a way we weren't capable of? He was more than happy to throw it all away once he realised the only thing he could accomplish here was to go for the EL.
 
fernadez said:
I think it's interesting that people accept the narrative that we have the 17th best team/squad in the league.

What is the stat? In 20 years previous we hadn't been out of the top 8.

Ive seen posters say a reason that he should have been given time is that we finished 5th in his first season. How have we then gone from 5th best to 17th best and the majority of the squad is the same as is the majority of every other teams

If Frank or whoever gets us 10th is he then a genius as we have the 17th best team in the league?
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I am not suggesting as a club 17th is a true reflection of our first XI. simply that being 17th does show indicate we have serious doth trouble. And that it’s unrealistic to expect us to waltz into 4. We haven’t finished top 4 much recently - and that’s even been with prime Kane and Son.
 
lurker of old said:
Still not sure why furloughing staff during Covid, riled some folks. It was perfectly legal and above board, no reason not to, and i think many football clubs did it.............
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Especially as many people on furlough were not from this country. They used the opportunity to go back to their home countries to be with their families.
 
Jordinho said:
When we're missing players that often, why couldn't he simply make adjustments to compensate? Why keep trying to play in a way we weren't capable of? He was more than happy to throw it all away once he realised the only thing he could accomplish here was to go for the EL.
Click to expand...
And finish 10-14th instead of 17th, maybe? We prioritised the EL, both in terms of saving players, and time spent analysing opponents etc. What if he did what you are saying, but the effort it took meant we didn't win the EL. Is that worth it?
 
Mikey10 said:
Fair enough.

In my opinion, no manager can survive 22 loses in a PL season. I don’t care what the circumstances are, to be honest - it’s just not good enough. Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, City would all sack a manager with that record, trophy or not. Southampton, Ipswich and Leicester would all do the same.

Added to that, there was no developing style of play; if anything, we were regressing. Ange won a trophy by playing a style of football which was the antithesis of what he preached. For me, he didn’t respect the fans; he told us prior to the City game that he would never sacrifice a game under any circumstances, but recently told us that he ditched the PL this season in January (I gave up going in December because I couldn’t bear to watch his style of football any longer, but I’d have been mightily tinkled off to hear this a couple of weeks ago were I a season ticket holder, or someone who had shelled out £70 or £80 to attend a game). He cupped his ear and waved in a mocking manner at our away fans. He occasionally picked fights with them. He had an excuse for every occasion and they shifted like the sands as the months, and the endless defeats, passed.

We employed Lange to take a stats based approach. If that’s the case, you simply can’t allow Ange to continue. The club would be assuming that he’s going to change his style of playing; his training methods; and, essentially, who he was. Taking a chance on all of that is not a sensible way to run a club (and a multi-billion pound business). And if you’re relying on that level of change, it’s surely much more sensible to employ someone else.

I actually think he now walks away in the best position he could. Much more wealthy, his stock reasonably high (watch where he ends up to see how highly he’s actually viewed by other clubs), and having got the trophy monkey off our back, for which I will be eternally grateful.

Personally (and I absolutely accept everyone will have their own take), I’m now looking forward to a new start, in the belief that I can attend PL games with plenty of hope again, and actually enjoy watching us play.
Click to expand...

A very fair viewpoint.
I agree with some of this, not with other bits, however we are where we are and onwards!

p.s. I agree re: Ange, he is not going to suffer from this.
 
Lemonade Money said:
And finish 10-14th instead of 17th, maybe? We prioritised the EL, both in terms of saving players, and time spent analysing opponents etc. What if he did what you are saying, but the effort it took meant we didn't win the EL. Is that worth it?
Click to expand...
That's a strawman.
Jordinho is just saying we could have set up differently e.g. sit deep and counter.
Not keep playing the bizarrely open style which only prime Barca can manage.
 
Lemonade Money said:
And finish 10-14th instead of 17th, maybe? We prioritised the EL, both in terms of saving players, and time spent analysing opponents etc. What if he did what you are saying, but the effort it took meant we didn't win the EL. Is that worth it?
Click to expand...

I'm not buying that we had to throw practically every league match post Christmas. Telling the FBs to play it a little more conservatively would have cost us the EL?
 
The crux of this debate lies with one unknown. Whether the claims that the medical team told Ange the players were going to end up injured if he doesn't adjust and that he ignored.

Now if it was just sheer bad luck we got that many injuries it still doesn't absolve our league form. But it allows you to have some benevolence.

But if he was made aware by people qualified to do so that he is killing the players and he ignored then his employment being terminated is even easier to get behind.

Also the trophy was delivered by Ange, yes. But also by the players. By the change in format. By an easy run. By a poor Man Utd in the worst final I've seen in ages.
 
Bullet said:
That's a strawman.
Jordinho is just saying we could have set up differently e.g. sit deep and counter.
Not keep playing the bizarrely open style which only prime Barca can manage.
Click to expand...
Don't you think that's something you need to work on in training, at the expense of working on the next EL opponent? Or do you think it's a 5 minute debrief?
 
Surfless said:
That's a great read and some valid reasons for the opposite view. I respect what you think and I agree that the league was abhorrent. But how many of those defeats were linked to us being missing our entire back five? And how many were forgone to further our European games?
Click to expand...

Yeah, there was so much context - I agree absolutely.

We all have our own spins on it. For me, no one is right or wrong and we all want the same thing ultimately.

At the end of the day, he has given me one of my top 5 Spurs supporting memories. I didn’t think he would (well, not until we got through the QFs, after which I was convinced we would, for some weird reason), so I tip my hat and am so thankful that he did.
 
There's a small part of me which wonders what would have happened if Ange had stayed. Could he have got a newly confident group of players to perform superbly in the league?
But the Chairman and Board were presumably able to ask questions and get answers to questions which we don't know about. So I'm not really sorry Ange went, I'm more sorry that the fans were divided and there are clearly some who feel it is a betrayal of a man who lead us to a Cup and gained the Club some Glory. Let's hope the new manager is revealed early next week, and next season he brings us some great victories and amazing memories.
 
As much as I appreciate Ange winning us a trophy and I will always remember and be grateful for that night, I don’t see how he could have repeated that feat next season, well not repeat it and still have us qualify for Europe.

I think most will agree that we would not be in a position with the type of football we have been playing to win the CL, so no route there.

A domestic cup maybe, but at what cost to our league position, and if this season is any indication of how focused we had to be to win a trophy then there is a very good chance that we would not be in a position in the league to qualify for Europe the following season.

For me that is enough of a reason to give someone else a chance.
 
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