Andros Townsend

[Gilzeantoscore]

Citing Townsend's selection for England is no recommendation. It says more about the state of English football, than anything positive about Townsend's ability. BTW, Townsend has been around for years. He is no stripling and has had plenty of chances to show what he can and cannot do.

 

[parklane1]

Citing Townsend's selection for England is no recommendation. It says more about the state of English football, than anything positive about Townsend's ability. BTW, Townsend has been around for years. He is no stripling and has had plenty of chances to show what he can and cannot do.

This is the crux, Townsend has played around 80 games for us and still has the same problems. Head down and run into blind alleys, then turn round and go back. It seems to me that the faults in his game are more or less the same and he seem unable/unwilling to change that. He will be 24 in a couple of months so he is not a youngster just breaking into the team.

 

[Yermiyahu]

Does anyone else think he looks a bit like Lionel Ritchie? When ever I see him running down the wing all I can think of is ' Hello is it me your looking for?' except when he scores and then I get 'What a feeling, dancing on the ceiling' I'll get my coat.

 

[Papercut]

In regards Lamela and Andros; I think we need to just sit back, relax and let the Poch decide who will work... He's let both play to his system and still keeps both in his squad. I'm actually quite relaxed about our options and think that we are in good hands...

 

[africanspurs]

Clearly you are watching a different player to everyone else. Also, I have already stated that there are plenty of other ghost players in our squad, not just Townsend. Don't' need to 'quantify' anything mate. He rarely scores. he rarely assists and he rarely defends. He is just out there running around a bit.

the reason i know for a fact i am not watching something different to "everyone else" is because there is a massive divide on this subject. It cant possibly be me versus everyone else....maybe everyone else in your line of thinking sure

you are right , you dont have to quantify anything, you dont have to do or say anything to justify your claims.....just that a claim cant be justified without actual information you know. but watevs man..... you know, not here for any qualms or beef.......i'll just be happy he has infact scored and assist in his last few games, poch is picking whoever he decides to pick and that person is contributing to a winning 11. i'm just going to enjoy it and be happy for the players that are scoring and assisting towards the win

 

[spurspinter1]

In regards Lamela and Andros; I think we need to just sit back, relax and let the Poch decide who will work... He's let both play to his system and still keeps both in his squad. I'm actually quite relaxed about our options and think that we are in good hands...

Wish I was as optimistic, to me it's probably the area that I'm most worried about, it's hard to make a case for either of them being the go to guy for that position based on their form in this seasons and those before also. And it's tough to fix it because I don't want us selling home grown players that could potentially make the grade, but I also don't want us taking a serious loss on a big money signing so it's difficult to clear the space for another option.

 

[Cochise]

Lamela has shown that there is magic in his boots and that he has the vision to pick out some eye of the needle passes. Unfortunately he rarely manages to consistently affect games. He has been taking up decent positions but after receiving the ball he's still thinking that he has ages to decide on his next move and usually gets closed down before having decided on it, whilst he lacks the directness that Townsend does.

Townsend has a level of self belief that seems unshakeable at times, but it could prove to be his undoing as he continues to try things that don't come off. His direct style though means that if you don't deal with him he will create something out of nothing. It's almost as if Lamela is looking for perfection and when it comes off it's great, but that happens rarely. Townsend is more likely to play the low percentage game, slinging in crosses and shots from range.

 

[billyiddo]

I think that's quite a fair summary of the two players Cochise and it's why im more confident of Lamela improving his game beyond what i think Townsend would be capable of. Right now though both have flaws and it's the attacking position in the side which needs to be looked at most.

 

[Bobby]

the reason i know for a fact i am not watching something different to "everyone else" is because there is a massive divide on this subject. It cant possibly be me versus everyone else....maybe everyone else in your line of thinking sure

you are right , you dont have to quantify anything, you dont have to do or say anything to justify your claims.....just that a claim cant be justified without actual information you know. but watevs man..... you know, not here for any qualms or beef.......i'll just be happy he has infact scored and assist in his last few games, poch is picking whoever he decides to pick and that person is contributing to a winning 11. i'm just going to enjoy it and be happy for the players that are scoring and assisting towards the win

I've been very impressed with how Poch hasn't been afraid of giving players a run in the game and then isn't afraid of dropping them again if they presumably fail to live up to his expectations. He seems to be finding what he feels is his best team.

What we need is some astute purchases this Summer to compliment existing players that he wants to keep. I think it's rather telling that Fazio, Stambouli and Davies haven't been able to hold down a regular first team spot despite now being given chances to shine.

 

[spurspinter1]

I've been very impressed with how Poch hasn't been afraid of giving players a run in the game and then isn't afraid of dropping them again if they presumably fail to live up to his expectations. He seems to be finding what he feels is his best team.

What we need is some astute purchases this Summer to compliment existing players that he wants to keep. I think it's rather telling that Fazio, Stambouli and Davies haven't been able to hold down a regular first team spot despite now being given chances to shine.

I'd say that these players have all shown themselves to be capable members of the squad, I'm not saying that Fazio and Davies have been without error defensively of course but Fazio has demonstrated his dominance in the air and organization, Davies (even though he's not everyone's cup of tea on here) is much more preferable to Naughton playing LB and arguably has provided the competition that has had Rose upping his game, and Stambouli, generally I've liked him more each time I see him play, he shows good positional awareness, often quick feet with good control and doesn't hide like another French midfielder we have on the books.

I don't see any of these players being anyone's top signing of the season but I'm not sure what you consider to be telling about the performances of these players either.

 

[Bobby]

I'd say that these players have all shown themselves to be capable members of the squad, I'm not saying that Fazio and Davies have been without error defensively of course but Fazio has demonstrated his dominance in the air and organization, Davies (even though he's not everyone's cup of tea on here) is much more preferable to Naughton playing LB and arguably has provided the competition that has had Rose upping his game, and Stambouli, generally I've liked him more each time I see him play, he shows good positional awareness, often quick feet with good control and doesn't hide like another French midfielder we have on the books.

I don't see any of these players being anyone's top signing of the season but I'm not sure what you consider to be telling about the performances of these players either.

I don't think Fazio is as dominant in the air as many of us claim. This opinion seems to have come out after Vertonghen made some positive noises about him.

The fact is we have had a strong squad for a few years now. It's first XI players we need and with the academy seemingly doing a great job there is little reason to spend millions on players who are there to bolster a squad. I love Davies's attitude. He is strong, brave and gives it his all. But neither he or Rose (or Walker for that matter) have demonstrated in their careers that they are good enough to be the wing backs Poch requires for his system to consistently work.

 

[scaramanga]

Despite having shown nothing, he still gets picked by England and was also on the starting 11 for what was arguably our most important game of the season. Are both managers complete idiots?

England are dogbrick - I could get called up for them. Despite my previous beliefs Woy is starting to look like a complete idiot - as much for taking the job as for his performance in it.

Poch doesn't need to be an idiot to make a wrong decision - it's just a wrong decision.

I never said that Townsend was better than Lamela; it was you that made the "blinkered" quote which can just as well be responded with a reply that only the most blinkered can claim that Lamela has done anything in two seasons to remotely suggest he will be here by the end of the next two seasons - let alone have been a success in them.
TBH I am no particular fan of either player and can't wait to see young Pritchard in that RMF position come next season. The only reason I replied to your post is that, to me, it seems ridiculous to paint Townsend as the villain and Lamela as the hero - especially one with a stratospheric ceiling in the Premiership. Both have been underwhelming but - as pointed out above - at least Townsend gets into a position to shoot; Lamela huffs and puffs but the house does not budge one inch.

As we're agreed that neither are assisting or scoring enough, the below link will tell you why it's perfectly logical to see Lamela as the better choice and (when the better player is the younger one) his chances of going on to better things are greater:
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m.../successful_take_ons/successful_take_ons_%#90

Two words: Occam's Razor

Whilst it's refreshing to see somebody on the internet attempting to reason via logic (especially on a football forum), I have to tell you that you're doing it wrong.

For the purposes of discussion when I refer to Occam's razor here I'm referring to the general public perception of it (fewer assumptions = more likely to be true). If you really did mean the correct and full version of Occam's razor then I'll be happy to discuss that too.

Your application of the theory is based on a number of presumptions and all of them should be counted as an assumption, making your proposal equal in number of assumptions to mine. To use the theory here you have to make the assumptions that Poch is correct and that he picks the team he thinks will win the next match, regardless of longer term goals.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think Fazio is as dominant in the air as many of us claim. This opinion seems to have come out after Vertonghen made some positive noises about him.

The fact is we have had a strong squad for a few years now. It's first XI players we need and with the academy seemingly doing a great job there is little reason to spend millions on players who are there to bolster a squad. I love Davies's attitude. He is strong, brave and gives it his all. But neither he or Rose (or Walker for that matter) have demonstrated in their careers that they are good enough to be the wing backs Poch requires for his system to consistently work.

http://www.squawka.com/football-pla...2/03/2015#season#1#all-matches#headed#desc#90

Duels won, sorted by number of headed duels won per 90 minutes, for defenders that have played more than 5 games this season.

Fazio is second, top central defender. He wins 75% of his headed duels, the only players with a higher percentage in the top 50 players based on that sorting are Zouma and Tomkins, both with 76%. I don't think this stat is the end all, be all, but I think it supports the view that he's damned strong in the air. As it has looked to me from watching the games this season too.

 

[Raziel]

http://www.squawka.com/football-pla...2/03/2015#season#1#all-matches#headed#desc#90

Duels won, sorted by number of headed duels won per 90 minutes, for defenders that have played more than 5 games this season.

Fazio is second, top central defender. He wins 75% of his headed duels, the only players with a higher percentage in the top 50 players based on that sorting are Zouma and Tomkins, both with 76%. I don't think this stat is the end all, be all, but I think it supports the view that he's damned strong in the air. As it has looked to me from watching the games this season too.

I don't need stats to back that up.

Even in games where he's played brick, he wins everything in the air

 

[scaramanga]

http://www.squawka.com/football-pla...2/03/2015#season#1#all-matches#headed#desc#90

Duels won, sorted by number of headed duels won per 90 minutes, for defenders that have played more than 5 games this season.

Fazio is second, top central defender. He wins 75% of his headed duels, the only players with a higher percentage in the top 50 players based on that sorting are Zouma and Tomkins, both with 76%. I don't think this stat is the end all, be all, but I think it supports the view that he's damned strong in the air. As it has looked to me from watching the games this season too.

I don't need stats to back that up.

Even in games where he's played crud, he wins everything in the air

What's even more interesting is using that link to look at total defensive actions (per 90). Sort descending on that and you'll see that Fazio is 8th in the league - of the 7 above him 6 of them play for brick teams that spend all their time defending.

I stopped scrolling well before I could find Vertonghen or Dier.

 

[parklane1]

I don't think Fazio is as dominant in the air as many of us claim. This opinion seems to have come out after Vertonghen made some positive noises about him.

The fact is we have had a strong squad for a few years now. It's first XI players we need and with the academy seemingly doing a great job there is little reason to spend millions on players who are there to bolster a squad. I love Davies's attitude. He is strong, brave and gives it his all. But neither he or Rose (or Walker for that matter) have demonstrated in their careers that they are good enough to be the wing backs Poch requires for his system to consistently work.

If you honestly believe that then all I can say is you have not watched him a lot.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Poch doesn't need to be an idiot to make a wrong decision - it's just a wrong decision.

He doesn't, you're right. But once again it's an Occam's razor principle... who is likely to make the wrong call? A coach who is becoming acknowledged as one of the best around and who has exceeded expectations by extract unimaginable results from a under-performing bunch of players and who has shown himself to be a sharp judge of player capabilities both in his promotion of youth and discarding of has beens? Or - like both of us - someone hitting the keys of a computer keyboard and putting across ideas and perceptions that are basically wannabe utterings?

As we're agreed that neither are assisting or scoring enough, the below link will tell you why it's perfectly logical to see Lamela as the better choice and (when the better player is the younger one) his chances of going on to better things are greater:
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m.../successful_take_ons/successful_take_ons_%#90

Whilst the stats have been purposely chosen to bring out Lamela's virtues, you conveniently omitted two key attributes: Attack score (Townsend 23.82 vs Lamela 15.93) and defence scores (Townsend 1.01 vs Lamela 4.84). And that has been the crux of the argument among those underwhelmed by Lamela. We all acknowledge he is much better at closing down, winning back the ball (often after he himself has lost it though). However we did not sign the Argentine to huff and puff; we bought him to blow the house down. And the same stats you quote show unequivocally that Townsend is far superior as an attacking threat

Whilst it's refreshing to see somebody on the internet attempting to reason via logic (especially on a football forum), I have to tell you that you're doing it wrong.

For the purposes of discussion when I refer to Occam's razor here I'm referring to the general public perception of it (fewer assumptions = more likely to be true). If you really did mean the correct and full version of Occam's razor then I'll be happy to discuss that too.

Your application of the theory is based on a number of presumptions and all of them should be counted as an assumption, making your proposal equal in number of assumptions to mine. To use the theory here you have to make the assumptions that Poch is correct and that he picks the team he thinks will win the next match, regardless of longer term goals.

Much as I love debating with you, it's really a put-off when you resort to these type of condescending posts. If you want to have a discussion on inductive reasoning and probability theory in relation to Occam's Razor, I am more than game . However at the end of the day, the beauty of the application is in its simplicity: other things being equal, simpler explanations are generally better than more complex ones. So, for all your negation, your convoluted reasoning and explanation for Lamela's repeated omissions in the most important games of this season, is disproved by the razor. The simpler - and therefore more likely - explanation is clearly that Poch thinks that Townsend is better for the team, at least at this moment.

 

[billyiddo]

^ I think Sqwawka base their 'attack' score purely on goal action, just to add some context - if you were to check all the passing/creating stats (things i think a lot of people would include in a broad 'attack' based score) then Lamela is quite comfortably in front of Townsend.

Frankly neither has been good enough in front of goal and need to improve if they want to be in the team looking to the future. But in terms of passing/creating Lamela has respectable figures when compared to the rest of the squad, Townsend does not. Lamela does well compared to the squad in defending from the front, Townsend does not. Townsend is better than Lamela in front of goal but is still behind the better players in the team (unless you want to include penalties) to me it's clear who the better player is - but that's not to say i can't see that in terms of goals he is WAY behind what we need

 

[Maltese Falcon]

^ I think Sqwawka base their 'attack' score purely on goal action, just to add some context - if you were to check all the passing/creating stats (things i think a lot of people would include in a broad 'attack' based score) then Lamela is quite comfortably in front of Townsend.

Frankly neither has been good enough in front of goal and need to improve if they want to be in the team looking to the future. But in terms of passing/creating Lamela has respectable figures when compared to the rest of the squad, Townsend does not. Lamela does well compared to the squad in defending from the front, Townsend does not. Townsend is better than Lamela in front of goal but is still behind the better players in the team (unless you want to include penalties) to me it's clear who the better player is - but that's not to say i can't see that in terms of goals he is WAY behind what we need

I understand that ... that is why I said "attacking threat". Anyone can twist, pick or select stats to suit your purpose; I think what these different points of view show is that neither player is "better" than the other - no matter how much their respective "defenders" (I will avoid apologists so as not to upset Milo) try to show it. At the end of the day, I am sure Fergie did not sign players on stats but rather on effectiveness. In this respect, both have been quite underwhelming, if we are to be honest...

 

[billyiddo]

Just to make it clear, im not basing my opinion on the two players on the stats - i base my opinion on what i see on the pitch - it's just at this stage it's useful to back your point of view up with the evidence available (in this case stats) i feel the evidence nicely backs up what i see, which is Lamela being poor in front of goal and prone to getting caught in possssion, but looks forward with the ball and has an eye for a pass, creates chances for his team mates to score and works hard in pressing. Townsend i see as a player who isn't particularly good in terms of passing or creating chances and doesn't put in the required work in terms of pressing - he is direct and will run at defenders which will sometimes pay off, but in terms of team play he just doesn't look to have the required attributes to work. Which is a shame because i love that he's a proper Spurs boy and I always want players with a connection to the club tosucceed (anyone here long enough may remember me being supportive of Livermore/O'hara longer than most on here...)