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Andre Villas-Boas - Head Coach

Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Where their first goal came after a shove on Jan and their second came after a Lloris save rebounded onto their player and went in without him even knowing it.

All goals require fortune to an extent, but you can't honestly say our defending in the West Ham game was anything other than horrific. Thing is we've looked shaky all season IMO we just haven't been punished as much as we should have been
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I obviously wasn't talking about a team who changed style under a new manager and got better at it I'm talking about a team changing style under the same manager, ie AVB made us tough to beat and solid LAST season but if anything the fluidity deteriorated and we created less chances towards the end of the season which has continued. I mean surely if there was a change in style it would be starting to happen.

Name a manager that has changed his own style or a team that played a full season under a style then changed and played a different style under the same manager another season?

It's AVB's style, this is it! If anything our fluidity and attacking instincts are reducing even further! He's replaced Dembele who played with a bit of flair at times and was always good for something off the cuff out of the blue e.g Norwich home last season and Lyon with an even more functional player in Paulinho, who you know exactly what he was going to do all the time!

So please enlighten me, why is AVB just going to throw how we play out the window and say 'you know what lads, f*** all this, let's go and play" and start attacking teams and letting players express themselves? Trying risky balls, taking a gamble etc? Where and when? What's he gonna do? I don't see it!

thats what i mean with Redknapp, the way we played in his first season was massively different to the way we played once he moved Bale forward and we had VDV in the hole

i'm not saying AVB is gonna throw this out, i'm sure the intention is it will get better as players become more comfortable with it, ultimately we won't need to play risky balls or gamble as our movement will be so good we'll drag opposing defences apart

this is the journey, not the destination

EDIT: sorry everyone, realise i've fallen into the trap of repeating arguments from this (and the other) thread and stepped straight into the straw man argument
 
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Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I see quite a few posters arguing that AVB has had to suffer the loss of his stars and has had to bed new ones in twice in the last two years, so too much shouldn't be expected of him early on.

I agree.

But know this: if this is the inevitable reaction to us losing our stars, then it will happen every season. That is simply reality for a club of our size. If AVB's early stumbles end up costing us a CL spot, we will almost certainly see one of Verts, Lloris (likeliest, imo) or Sandro leaving in the summer to either our parent club or another side, which will lead to him needing to rebuild again (Especially in Lloris' case: for the life of me, I cannot think of one sweeper keeper who plays like he does and would be an option for us, necessitating another tactical change to adapt). This will spark another round of laboured results and unsatisfying performances while the team adjusts, which will in all probability cost us another CL spot (because the likes of Liverpool don't have to deal with this ****, judging by the way they told Suarez to shut up and stay put), which will lead to more stars leaving, cue endless repetition.

If we are to succeed we need to break that cycle. And if we are to break that cycle we need one of two things: a manager who can set a team up in a relatively quick amount of time to compensate for our inevitable transfers away every summer, or a system that survives the loss of even key personnel without significant adjustment.

I highly doubt AVB is the former: he seems a relatively regimented, rigid thinker who needs his system to be in place before he can gain enough confidence to let the team play. So that means we are dependent on him creating a system, i.e the latter.

Problem is, those systems take a lot of time to create (see Ferguson or Wenger for examples) and need just the right ingredients to truly explode into life, which also takes time. But AVB has said his ambition is to manage in Brazil and then sod off to the Dakar Rally in a decade, so will he be around long enough to implement his system? And even assuming he gives up on that Dakar ambition, what's to prevent him having one half-decent season with us (a la the nearly season last year) and then leaving for PSG (owner is his personal friend), Monaco, or any one of the many continental teams still enamoured by his reputation?

All questions, few good answers, imo. Levy was right to get rid of Redknapp: once the individual star quality of the side departed (Modric and VDV), we would never have been able to recreate the free-flowing football we managed to play throughout 2011, simply because Harry depended on his players to produce, and had no input to offer them when the going got tough beyond his famous 'run abaht a bit' quote. So it would very possibly have been a disaster if he was allowed to stay but given the intensely functional side we inherited once Modric and VDV left (both inevitable, for differing reasons), since he'd likely have done little better than AVB's doing now. But AVB was supposed to be our great young hope (for what it's worth, I think he still is), but the circumstances around him are darkening, and questions are arising about both the viability of his long-term system and his long-term commitment to the club necessary to implement that system. Will they be answered? I hope they will.

I would agree that if AVB cannot build in the system by the end of this season and always needs more time to readjust every year, then he probably isn't right for us. He needs to be able to implement it and minimise the losses of players when they do move on and if he doesn't, it is probably worth having Harry back as I think he would definitely get 5th with 120M to spend taking into account Bale, Parker, Caulker and Dempsey sales etc.

But what I think will happen is that this season we will see his true style implemented - it was a bit of a unique window in that 7 players arrived and all expected to play a part in the first team. That will take some time to bed them in and in the future, we should see a more stable transfer window most summers, even if we lose a key player we should be ready to replace them and comfortable in the style so that it doesn't change us too much. If we don't get to that point under AVB, he will have failed. But I think we will get there.

I'd also say that Liverpool didn't really pull up too many trees with Suarez. He will go at the end of this season. They got lucky as Arsenal grossly underestimated his price and Real Madrid didn't make a big effort to lure him once they got Bale. Once Suarez realised he didn't have any other option but to stay then he bucked his ideas up. We were faced with world record money and Liverpool never got to that point.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

thats what i mean with Redknapp, the way we played in his first season was massively different to the way we played once he moved Bale forward and we had VDV in the hole

i'm not saying AVB is gonna throw this out, i'm sure the intention is it will get better as players become more comfortable with it, ultimately we won't need to play risky balls or gamble as our movement will be so good we'll drag opposing defences apart

this is the journey, not the destination

EDIT: sorry everyone, realise i've fallen into the trap of repeating arguments from this (and the other) thread and stepped straight into the straw man argument

We didn't play differently in Redknapp's second season - we just got better at Redknapp's own style! When Redknapp first joined he brought in several of his own players, changed tactics and made us more physical and direct straight away! We continued this way into the later part and then in his first full season played this way but even better! We didn't change style under Redknapp we learnt HIS style and once we'd done that kept it the same. Redknapp tried to implement his style from day one!

So I believe has AVB! He isn't planning to change style, I mean when are we going to do that? Next season? The season after?
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

NWND, you keep saying 'this is AVB's style', but what do you say to the performance against Norwich earlier this season, or Villa away in the cup, or Cardiff away in the league, or Chelsea in the first half? Note I am not saying that we are consistently on that level yet, or that the opposition was up to much necessarily, but this is an argument about style, and style will be there regardless of other factors. And the fact is, we played some really nice stuff in those examples I have just given you. Good tempo, excellent movement, incisive passes.

It is why I believe that once we get better and more comfortable with the style so we can be consistent, we can see it more often. It's not necessarily changing from one style to the other, it is getting better at what we are trying to do. What do you say to that line of argument? Do you just not buy it?
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

We didn't play differently in Redknapp's second season - we just got better at Redknapp's own style! When Redknapp first joined he brought in several of his own players, changed tactics and made us more physical and direct straight away! We continued this way into the later part and then in his first full season played this way but even better! We didn't change style under Redknapp we learnt HIS style and once we'd done that kept it the same. Redknapp tried to implement his style from day one!

So I believe has AVB! He isn't planning to change style, I mean when are we going to do that? Next season? The season after?

Hang on, so you're saying we got better at Harry's style and that process continued over the length of his reign? Why are you not extending the same patience and courtesy to AVB? That is pretty much EXACTLY my argument.

I guess you will say that even in Harry's early years we played some nice stuff, which is true. But it doesn't really change my line of argument that there have been flashes of nice stuff under AVB this year, but because we are learning to play with more control and less 'go out there and play' that it may take a bit longer to learn and the style may look awkward at times during that process. If you saying we learnt to play Harry's style better, surely you think we can learn to play AVB's style better too?
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but isn't that what gale force is saying? That we'll just improve our current style, like you acknowledge we improved under redknapp's 2nd season?
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

We didn't play differently in Redknapp's second season - we just got better at Redknapp's own style! When Redknapp first joined he brought in several of his own players, changed tactics and made us more physical and direct straight away! We continued this way into the later part and then in his first full season played this way but even better! We didn't change style under Redknapp we learnt HIS style and once we'd done that kept it the same. Redknapp tried to implement his style from day one!

So I believe has AVB! He isn't planning to change style, I mean when are we going to do that? Next season? The season after?

there was a massive difference, when Harry took over he pretty much played 4-5-1 with the likes of o'hara and bentley on the flanks and Modric being utilised as a central midfielder whilst Pav or Bent played as an isolated target man

that was a far cry from the way we played in following seasons with out and out wingers and VDV playing off the striker
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

There is a massive difference between Redknapp and AVB. Redknapp sets his sides up based on the players he has at his disposal. He looks at the strengths his players have and sets them up to get the most out of them.
AVB has a very different approach, he has a system which players have to fit into, plus side is everyone knows the system and it's easier to interchange players. Down sides are we'll never get the most out of players that the system doesn't suit and every other side knows how we are going to play. A season and a bit in every other side knows how to snuff us out.
I find some of our signings a bit baffling, as they don't fit AVB's system, with good reason lots of people thought there might be a change in system to 4-3-3 this season based on who was coming in. Instead we've still got AVB's Plan A with a lot of round pegs in square holes.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Which players don't you think fit AVB's preferred style/formation Hully?
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

All goals require fortune to an extent, but you can't honestly say our defending in the West Ham game was anything other than horrific. Thing is we've looked shaky all season IMO we just haven't been punished as much as we should have been

What, like the good fortune that a player didn't break a leg as a youngster or get run over by a bus on the way to the game? Your statement is kind of a load of ******** as I am sure there have been a few goals that are down to one team or player being better than another. My point about the Wet Spam goals was focused solely on their good fortune for two of their goals, which in that particular case is incontrovertible.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I started a long winded point and gave up...bottom line is I think he is building something great if people can be patient. We have a better foundation than we've had for a long time. I hope AVB stats to see it through, but who knows, maybe someone else will come in and bring the project home...regardless, this relentless ****ging is getting drearier and drearier...
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I started a long winded point and gave up...bottom line is I think he is building something great if people can be patient. We have a better foundation than we've had for a long time. I hope AVB stats to see it through, but who knows, maybe someone else will come in and bring the project home...regardless, this relentless ****ging is getting drearier and drearier...

=D>
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

AVB has done himself no favours losing each game before the international break, it gives people more time to sulk on results and overreact.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Again though, you have to feel sympathy for the man, even if he doesn't express it for himself (thankfully!!!)…he walked in the door and Modric went out (a player he wanted at Chelski even though Ancelotti has tabbed him before that), he did not get Moutinho (see Sweden game for latest evidence of what he could do for Soldado, etc), he saw Bale leave having thought he'd have him for this season and Willian was stolen from the medical. I think we can certainly conclude that the man is very aware of what we need, and desperately wants to make sure we get it.

Feel sympathy? he's been allowed to spend the Bale money on some excellent players. It's not like his best player was sold and he wasn't given the money to spend.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Feel sympathy? he's been allowed to spend the Bale money on some excellent players. It's not like his best player was sold and he wasn't given the money to spend.

I know you will forever not believe me, but until the middle of the summer, the manager was getting to KEEP Bale for one more season and add a few players (aka the Lewis loan)…

I'm not crying him a river, but I genuinely think that anyone who believe he has had it EXACTLY as he wanted is kidding themselves. I'll spare you and others the details of what I mean as I have posted it a few times before, but if requested, would be happy to post it again. Again, probably the most important thing is that HE himself does not complain. It's a good thing. That would be showing weakness IMO.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I don't fel sorry for managers that are allowed to spend £100m tbh.

Once again mate, I see what you're saying but do think you're not applying any context to the above statement…on a side-note, what will be VERY interesting is to see if we spend in January. Usually the main men are not available, but with the 'Lewis loan' still reportedly in place, we could have as much as 75-odd million!!!!!! Crazy.
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

Once again mate, I see what you're saying but do think you're not applying any context to the above statement…on a side-note, what will be VERY interesting is to see if we spend in January. Usually the main men are not available, but with the 'Lewis loan' still reportedly in place, we could have as much as 75-odd million!!!!!! Crazy.

..and Steff if you were AVB in January with £75 m to spend, who would you buy?
 
Re: ***The Official AVB Discussion Thread***

I don't fel sorry for managers that are allowed to spend £100m tbh.

That does sound lovely but you have to factor in the fact he lost Modric and Bale, two players combined worth in excess of £100m and two genuine world class players and with that two of our most influential. Spurs arent a club that can bring in ready made world class players, we develop them into such. Modric and Bale didn't become world class performers overnight it took them a good amount of time before they got there. With this new big influx of talented players we have acquired, patience is required Im afraid, if you don't have that you're going to be forever disappointed supporting this club....
 
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