We'd also likely be fined and thrown out of the competition and possibly face a further ban in coming seasons.
Good idea
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2015/16 Europa League - Round of 16: Borussia Dortmund
- Thread starter 90sSpursBook
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We'd also likely be fined and thrown out of the competition and possibly face a further ban in coming seasons.
Good idea
braineclipse
Willie Hall
I think that sounds better in theory than in practice.
I would like to see us rotate quite heavily, and rest players. But I'm not sure "splitting our squad" is the way to go about it. Injuries, suspensions, drops in form, great form etc will play a part.
I think problems arise primarily when a large portion of the same staring 11 is sent out, or from fatigue issues over longer periods of playing two games a week with no real breaks.
Most of all we need better options in the attacking positions to be able to send a competitive side to those EL games whilst resting enough players to keep us fresh enough for the PL weekend game. This season we've had very little good cover for the "front 6" positions.
spurspinter1
Paul Stalteri
The vicious cycle of being in a competition we might actually be able to win, the horror!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We will play the crap like Tromso and Maribor, at this point in the competition we use players on the fringes of the squad and it gives them a chance above reserve football to show what they can do. Whilst some were slagging off Harry Kane for being fudging useless and clumsy two seasons ago against some Cypriot part timers, I was watching with interest, to see players from our academy as well as other young talent brought in. Alongside the youth that will play, if we are in the CL our regular XI will be expected to perform in a European game as well as a tough premier league fixture so why not start practicing now? Obviously the quality of the opposition will be harder in the "Elite" European competition so we should find it even easier, if we are undone by the Cypriots or the Ukranians then we would have got royally fudged by quality opposition.
Oh but it matters more in the CL so the players will be more up for it I hear. We pay our players substantial wages to represent us on the football pitch, whether it's a pre season friendly or an FA Cup final they should feel the honour and privilege of being in this position and should show 100% commitment and pride in how they assert themselves. If we have got players that can't really be bothered because there's less of an appearance fee then we should simply get rid of the lazy fudgers.
I hate to bring up Chelsea again, but when they dropped down in to the competition did they say "Actually, can't be arsed, let's take an arse raping and get ourselves out of this competition? No. They won it. Because they are winners. Our mentality of not wanting to be in a competition we might be able to win is fudging embarrassing, it really indicates how much our thinking as football fans has changed yet it's ourselves that are the problem. What fudging difference should playing on a Thursday and Sunday instead of a Saturday Wednesday? Is that really an argument against the Europa league?! Precious little flowers, having to play on a Thursday instead of a Wednesday, how can they cope?
What I have got out of the Europa league is seeing some good games at White Hart Lane, seeing Eriksen's first goal for Spurs against Tromso was definitely something I got out of it. Were you there? Would you have been if it was a champions league competition? And if so, does that tell you something about your mentality in support of our club. It's an honest question, please answer it if possible. If you are trying to claim we haven't benefited in terms of giving players game time to find form then there's barely any point continuing this discussion.
That's okay to "glow" in fondness for our run in the CL, I'm in no way saying I didn't enjoy it, but I think that many would suddenly be glowing about the EL if we did win it. Although we make it harder to do so with our ridiculous apathy towards it. I'm actually desperate for you to provide a thought out argument of why you feel the way about this, because although I am happy to talk about it in a reasonable manner, I find it an absolute fudging disgrace the way in which we perceive the competition, there appear to be many who yearn for us to emulate Arsenal, with the idea that supporting Spurs will only be worth it when we're able to jerk each other off whilst the "Champions" league theme music plays. Ooooooh the ambition. I feel like many who have this bizarre notion that EL is the thing stopping us from getting CL will be looking a bit silly with their trousers down and lube at the ready when we have a season out of Europa, yet don't surge to a majestic, high flying fourth place, what will we blame then? I'd say Bassong's suspension because it's as valid of an argument.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
We are at a crucial stage of our development with the new stadium (and associated naming rights) on the horizon. Qualifying for the CL would put us in a far better negotiating position.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
The difference is that Chelsea have the CL finances (and the Oligarch owner) to be able to maintain a squad big enough to compete across a number of fronts. Whereas we are not quite as lucky.
Do Sevilla, Dnipro, Fiorentina or Napoli? Probably not but they seem to be making a go at winning it. I agree with S1 when he said its all about a winning mentality and until Spurs develop one we'll all have to sit back and settle for best loser.
spurspinter1
Paul Stalteri
So we may as well not even bother turning up at the start of the season. We've already let ourselves off for being brick and it's all the money that's ruined it. They have spent more than we have, and will continue to do so but that doesn't mean that it's okay for us to want out of potential silverware.
Why bother getting out of bed in the morning when you know another bloke is getting paid a few extra zero's than yourself right? May as well pack it up now and just give in.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
Our problem this season has not been the size of our squad.
We have 3 strikers and mainly play a lone striker. The problem is that both Adebayor and Soldado have offered so extremely little when given the chance.
Assuming Chadli, Eriksen and Lamela as first choice in the AM positions. We had Townsend, Lennon, Paulinho and Dembele in the first part of the season. That's 7 players for those 3 positions. The problem is that too many of those 7 have offered way too little to actually make an impact worth rotating them into the side.
Behind Mason and Bentaleb we have plenty of players. Stambouli, Capoue, Dembele, Paulinho... But again, the same problem, with the possible exception of Stambouli and (on his day) Dembele.
Lamela and Townsend have had least made a decent impact in the EL. But other than those I won't even start adding up the wages per week we pay to players in our squad that are effectively not providing any positive impact as a squad player beyond what a decent 10k p/w Championship player would offer. We do not need Chelsea type oligarch money to have a squad capable of competing i the EL. We just need a handful of players good enough and motivated enough to actually do that job.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
They all have an advantage in the fact that they don't play in leagues that are as competitive as ours is. The better sides in those Italy, Spain and Ukraine can quite easily roll over all but the best handful of teams in their leagues, whereas that isn't the case at all in England where you have to be properly at it every game. You see many of the foreign players who come to England from Spain, Italy, etc talk about this and not believing how physically demanding the Premier League is every single week.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
You make a good point here I think.... and if I take it back to my earlier point about leaving our weekend PL starting line up at home when we have a Europa League away game I think your post shows that we could quite easily send a second string side away and still have a decent chance of getting a result.....
Assuming this is our current first choice starting team for Premier League games:
-------------------------Lloris
Walker------Fazio---------Vertonghen-------Rose
-------------Bentaleb---------Mason
------Lamela--------Ericksen--------Chadli
--------------------------Kane
Then potentially that would leave something akin to the below for the Europa league away games:
----------------------------Vorm
Yedlin---------Dier-------------Chiriches-------Davies
-------------Stambouli----------Capoue
-------Dembele--------Paulinho--------Townsend
--------------------------Soldado
The subs can then come from our under 21 set up.
That team above should be good enough to snatch a 0-0 against FC Timbuktu of Kazakhstan
I appreciate that there are always injuries and such things to consider, but I don't think we should be taking any more than 2 or 3 of our weekend starting 11 out to the group stage away games.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
On paper, in theory, before the season, yes that team should probably be good enough to get the results we want. In practice it hasn't quite turned out that way for quite a few of those players, particularly those in the "front 6".
I think we should strive for more competition for places in the summer window. Of the current front 6 as you list it above I rather hope only Bentaleb, Eriksen and Kane are seen as automatic first team starters come the end of the summer transfer window. Who starts of Mason and /new signing/, or Chadli and say Pritchard, or Lamela and some new signing should depend on form, development, the opposition, injury situation etc. In other words not a "literally split" squad. But competition for places and rotation.
Say Pritchard starts a EL game and does really well. Flying, high on confidence, raring to get a PL start. I have no issues with him starting again in the league, even if someone else is better rested. Unlike what AVB did where Lamela did really well in a EL game and was swiftly not given a game for quite some time...
I agree that a fairly low number of coming PL starters should start the preceding EL game. Although a number closer to 4-5 could be just fine.
Im not sure we'll go to the extremes of having totally different XIs/match day squads but i can see us rotating heavily in the group stages - hopefully we'll have a squad more suited to the managers needs and it won't be a case of patching together a team just to get the game out of the way - there will actually be an intent to win as well as giving different players/partnerships etc match time.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Again, good points.... and I agree with you pretty much entirely (other than taking 4-5 of our weekend starting players out to the away Europa league games, which I think is too many and not necessary).
Like you, I am hoping that only Bentaleb, Ericksen and Kane are automatic first team starters next season, although in reality I'm not sure we'll be lucky enough to sign automatic starters in the central midfield and two wide midfield positions.
Slightly off topic but I was having a think the other day and with our stadium situation perhaps meaning we don't have a huge amount of cash to spend on transfers and the fact that our wage bill should drop drastically next season (providing we can find clubs gullible enough to take Adebayor, Soldado, Capoue, Chiriches, Kaboul & Paulinho off of us) then I wonder whether we couldn't supplement our squad in the positions we require simply be signing freebies....
Gignac would provide decent back up for Kane,
Konoplyanka or Ayew would both provide options to play as the left sided attacking player.
James Milner would be a top class upgrade on Mason, as well as providing cover for just about all positions other than centre half
Nigel De Jong would replace the pointless Capoue in the squad and give us a true holding player (and potentially then free up Bentaleb to play further forward)
Fabian Schar would give us another option at centre half allowing both Kaboul and Chiriches to be jettisoned.
Of course the zero transfer fee is offset by high wages, but I would've thought the net effect on wages from the outs and ins would balance reasonably well.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
4-5 players. Say the goalie, two centre backs, a full back and the defensive midfielder. Should be perfectly fine imo. Switch it around to more attacking players and 4-5 players is probably too much. 1-2 out of the "front 6" seems about enough.
As a general point of view I prefer lower wages and higher transfer fees to the other way around. If a player is available on a free or not should not be a primary concern when considering if we should buy that player or not. Milner would be "free", but if his reported wage and contract demands are true a deal for him could easily end up costing £15-20m over 4 years, at the end of which he would be worth essentially nothing. Or even worse he starts getting slower and worse and as soon as 2-3 years from now he's no longer good enough for us and a huge Adebayor-esque wage drain we have to pay to get rid of. A player costing £10m could easily be seen as much better value for money than "free" agent Milner.
I think other clubs will be willing to offer Milner much more than we will, and I don't think we'll end up landing him even if we are interested.
Lemonade Money
Steffen Freund
This is fine from a financial perspective, but what about performance on the pitch? And how is Lamela working out? It's obvious we should never have gone near Ade, but there were warning signs. It doesn't mean a free/high wages is always a bad situation.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
That's why I started that paragraph with "as a general point of view", and stated that if the player is "free" or not should not be a primary concern. It's still a concern of course, but far from the most important one.
The financial perspective is linked to performances on the pitch. Poor signings are not only poor on the pitch they're opportunity costs stopping us from making other, perhaps more positive, signings. The more expensive financial deal obviously spends more money that can't be used on other players...
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I would rather the keeper and our entire defence stayed home to train as a unit, concentrating solely on our opposition in the PL that weekend.
Unfortunately I think you are right re: Milner and other clubs being willing to offer more than us, I say unfortunately because he is the one out of all of them that I would want here the most. I think Milner for 4 years for a total of £15 to £20 million would be great value. He would add experience (which I think our team badly lack) as well as quality. I also think he will be a player who will be able to successfully drop into a slightly deeper role in two or three years time as he perhaps loses a bit of pace and mobility, I think the fact that he is already able to play well in so many positions shows this. Also I would say it is a little unfair to liken Milner to Adebayor in terms of their character.
Of the other players I mentioned I doubt that either Gignac or Ayew will be commanding particularly big wages and both are available in positions that we really do need options in.
braineclipse
Willie Hall
I didn't compare Milner to Adebayor in terms of their character. But we've seen in the past that a player can go from very effective to "get out" rather quickly when they start losing their pace in a position like that (Parker).
I wouldn't classify the above as "great value". Perhaps "just about acceptable value", but more likely "we should be able to find better value elsewhere". Which is why I don't think we'll end up signing him.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I think the difference between an Adebayor and a Parker is that the latter would WANT to get out of the club if not being picked rather that sit around picking up his wages. Personally I would put Milner in the same category as Parker as he could easily stay on at Emirates Marketing Project, pick up his wages and no doubt pick up more trophies.
I think £15 million to £20 million over a 4 year period for a player of Milner's experience and proven quality in the Premier League is great value. To find better value that that it has to be something of a gamble from a foreign league. As an example consider Paulinho as a comparison. He cost us £17 million and I would imagine that he is on at least £40k a week in wages. Over a 4 year period that is a package £25 million.... Or put another way £5 million to £10 million more than the prior stated amount for Milner over the same 4 year period. I know which of the two players I would rather have in my squad.
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