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Politics, politics, politics

SpurMeUp said:
Presumably you'd vote for a pro-brexit Labour party then?

This election could be decided by how Labour set out their stall on the EU. I am struggling to find any reason to vote Labour. Individually, I like Labour MPs. My local MP, where I work, Diane Abbot was amazing, helped us sort out the local council, gave me more time than I'd thought possible. But to govern the country? They're a fuking shambles. People who read the Sun for their politics won't vote for them. People who care about politics probably won't vote for them. Just old school 70s era socialists.
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Correct, I would vote for a pro-Brexit Labour party. Brexit has been decided, now we decide on the type of Brexit. I wasn't alive in the 70s, I care about politics and I will vote for Labour, thoroughly aware of Corbyn's short-comings. I will vote for left-wing policies and politicians that will at least try to enact them.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Obviously manifestos to be set out etc...but you would consider a lib dem vote? I agree with you. Party politics has little bearing on the country. Ministries have a new Minister with a pet project, but the underlying initiatives don't change massively even when switching from Labour to Conservative. Exiting the EU and the single market - now that is a genuine change with real implications.
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Yes. Labour came second to the Conservatives in my seat last time. I know the Labour candidate, they are good, I broadly agree with them and their views on Brexit are similar to mine. If they are selected again, I will probably vote Labour but it would not be with much enthusiasm. If I got a pro-Brexit, Momentum/Labour candidate I would probably vote Lib Dem. Red Tory scum that I am.
 
the dza said:
Correct, I would vote for a pro-Brexit Labour party. Brexit has been decided, now we decide on the type of Brexit. I wasn't alive in the 70s, I care about politics and I will vote for Labour, thoroughly aware of Corbyn's short-comings. I will vote for left-wing policies and politicians that will at least try to enact them.
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Even if they are 'un-electable'? In other words, stand no chance? For me all parties lack fresh ideas and innovation. But the Labour party is possibly the worst offender, living in the past. That's not so bad, but what is, is their image. I quite like Corbyn he's okay in himself, but he's a shambles as a leader. He has no aggression, vision, or appeal to the general population. I don't think I will be able to bring myself to vote them, sad as it is. I believe in socialism, but not that kind. There is nothing new to it, and its too often unrealistic, expensive and wishy washy.

The country is crying out for a Tony Blare type, who at least had contemporary vision. Where has that gone? Each party seems to be living in the past.
 
milo said:
Yes. Labour came second to the Conservatives in my seat last time. I know the Labour candidate, they are good, I broadly agree with them and their views on Brexit are similar to mine. If they are selected again, I will probably vote Labour but it would not be with much enthusiasm. If I got a pro-Brexit, Momentum/Labour candidate I would probably vote Lib Dem. Red Tory scum that I am.
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How Labour sets out its position on brexit will be fundamental. A vast majority of MPs are pro remain, so it will be interesting to see who has some balls to stand up for what they believe in.
 
SpurMeUp said:
We could see some kind of shabby lib-lab alliance if its a close vote. If only there was a credible alternative to the conservatives. How can a democracy have such a shower of zhit options to vote for? No wonder ukip, trump etc are doing well. They represent something fresh and different (even tho fascism is really same old too). Populism is just a cry for fresh assertive leaders imo. What do we have? May or Corbyn. What is going wrong? Do we pay MPs enough? Or attract decent visionary people into politics? There is a crisis in western politics and its caused by the dull hubris of traditional parties in my opinion.
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The Student Party would need to have somewhere around 130 seats for that to happen. Do you think that's likely?
 
SpurMeUp said:
How Labour sets out its position on brexit will be fundamental. A vast majority of MPs are pro remain, so it will be interesting to see who has some balls to stand up for what they believe in.
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I feel for Kier Starmer, he is bright and competent. His calls on Brexit have largely been right but he has been completely undermined by Corbyn and McDonnell and the resulting position is a fudge.
 
milo said:
Parties would probably have to be more forward thinking if more young people voted.
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Yet I don't blame them. Vote for what? There is no choice, no modern technology to vote, no initiative, no re-branding, nothing that connects with them. Populism is a product of that too. People saying this old zhit is boring me, give me something else. Traditional parties are yet to see that imo, are yet to innovate.

Is there any industry where you could serve up the same 1970s meal, in the same packaging and slogans, with the same delivery systems, that would still be in business?
 
SpurMeUp said:
Even if they are 'un-electable'? In other words, stand no chance? For me all parties lack fresh ideas and innovation. But the Labour party is possibly the worst offender, living in the past. That's not so bad, but what is, is their image. I quite like Corbyn he's okay in himself, but he's a shambles as a leader. He has no aggression, vision, or appeal to the general population. I don't think I will be able to bring myself to vote them, sad as it is. I believe in socialism, but not that kind. There is nothing new to it, and its too often unrealistic, expensive and wishy washy.

The country is crying out for a Tony Blare type, who at least had contemporary vision. Where has that gone? Each party seems to be living in the past.
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You get a ballot paper and put your X next to the politics you agree with. The mess in the world is much more down to the likes of Blair than it is the likes of Corbyn.

The centrists always bleat when the left don't vote for their candidate and a right-winger wins (see Hilary Clinton supporters in the USA). Well now the shoe is on the other foot, lets see how serious centrists are about "keeping the Tories out." Can they bring themselves to vote for a left-wing candidate/party?
 
Hotshot-Tottenham said:
Maybe sone very ominous news from the EU side regarding the negotiations?
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So she needed some very ominous news to make her do something she wanted to do in order to allow her to do something she already wanted to do?

That's pretty much the definition of motivated reasoning there.
 
the dza said:
You get a ballot paper and put your X next to the politics you agree with. The mess in the world is much more down to the likes of Blair than it is the likes of Corbyn.

The centrists always bleat when the left don't vote for their candidate and a right-winger wins (see Hilary Clinton supporters in the USA). Well now the shoe is on the other foot, lets see how serious centrists are about "keeping the Tories out." Can they bring themselves to vote for a left-wing candidate/party?
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I don't have a problem voting for a left wing candidate. I accept that our voting systems means that each party is a coalition of sorts. My issue with Corbyn is primarily about his competence and a lot of the problems that we face now are a direct result of his lack of it. The government would be running scared of an election if we had a half competent opposition.
 
milo said:
I feel for Kier Starmer, he is bright and competent. His calls on Brexit have largely been right but he has been completely undermined by Corbyn and McDonnell and the resulting position is a fudge.
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Or Tristan Hunt...

I've never been tempted to partake in politics. I don't always vote as our democratic system is flawed, but now, there is a real need for fresh blood and ideas. There is no incentive to get involved however. A few who make their money, and want to get involved in politics have time for it. Why else would you?

Hence the conservatives often seem to be more competent because they attract more successful people who have a stronger history in business, and the conservatives do well despite them mainly only representing the wealthy. You can see why America voted for a entrepreneur. People want to vote for someone that is competent, and can makes things happen. Career politicians rarely have the experience of running organisations or being efficient or generating sales etc

the dza said:
You get a ballot paper and put your X next to the politics you agree with. The mess in the world is much more down to the likes of Blair than it is the likes of Corbyn.

The centrists always bleat when the left don't vote for their candidate and a right-winger wins (see Hilary Clinton supporters in the USA). Well now the shoe is on the other foot, lets see how serious centrists are about "keeping the Tories out." Can they bring themselves to vote for a left-wing candidate/party?
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Sadly the answer is probably no they won't. By definition they are in the center, not just Labour supporters.

I have no problem with radical action. But that's not what Corbyn represents. He represents the past, not the future. I personally believe in an efficient small state, national ownership, and free enterprise. Corbyn is the status quo but with a few nods to the past - nationalise the railways his biggest draw. Is that it? I don't know how that kind of 70-80s politics is relevant anymore. Does he have any fresh ideas? When you pull him apart, does he stand for anything at all?
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Yet I don't blame them. Vote for what? There is no choice, no modern technology to vote, no initiative, no re-branding, nothing that connects with them. Populism is a product of that too. People saying this old zhit is boring me, give me something else. Traditional parties are yet to see that imo, are yet to innovate.

Is there any industry where you could serve up the same 1970s meal, in the same packaging and slogans, with the same delivery systems, that would still be in business?
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The current political position is a direct result of the 2008 crash. People feel insecure and those that are able to provide easy answers to complex problems are benefiting. Whilst Corbyn is a populist, he is incapable of distilling a message into a soundbite and that is what is required for it to get across.
 
@scaramanga - I assume that you are not overjoyed at the choice ahead either. Whilst I know that you would never vote for them in a million years, a lot of your views seem closer to the Orange Book liberals than they are to May's regressive Christian interventionism.
 
scaramanga said:
I'd love to know how you can have all three of those. The first effectively precludes the others.
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Why? Look around the world and it exists. State run transportation is common. Car companies or plane manufacturers are often part state owned, within countries that have free enterprise. Why are the two mutually exclusive?
 
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