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Harry Winks

Only just joined the forum, but Winks is Marmite between my friends and me. I really can't see it. To me he is exactly like Mason, Bentaleb, and even Stephen Clemence. He passes the ball left to right and backwards, has loads of energy, but offers little more. He treats the ball like a hot potato and shows little confidence. Yes, he obviously has some ability, but to me he is a Hull/Stoke/West Brom player.

But he does NOT just do that. Sorry, you are wrong. Many of his initial passes are quick, decisive positive forward balls. The fact that you can put Clemence and Bentaleb in the same sentence underscores my feeling that you are casting for bites here. Different eras obviously but vastly different levels of talent and even approach. The latter was/is supremely talented and but for his attitude would still be at the club.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Today was a step up game for Winks. Said it before, not as enamored with Winks as some are, good neat footballer that helps the side tick.

Today, especially at start (possibly with Eriksen not starting), he looked like he was tearing the opposition apart, play like that more often, and we can really talk about him being special.

Stats from Reddit below ..

View attachment 3167

One of the things I liked about him early on was he hardly lost the ball and made quick, positive use of it.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
He looks comfortable in the first team. I think he feels like he belongs there, as in he knows he's good enough.

I agree. We probably need to see him starting against some stronger opposition a few times before we can judge fairly but we do not look weaker when he is in the side and he offers something different to our other options in central midfield.
 
I agree. We probably need to see him starting against some stronger opposition a few times before we can judge fairly but we do not look weaker when he is in the side and he offers something different to our other options in central midfield.

There was a tactical analysis of the way we play in the 3-4-2-1 floating around last week - I'll see if I can find it, but basically it apportions a good deal of credit for our solidity when using the system to the fact that we use Wanyama and Dembele as a double-pivot in central midfield. The sheer strength and size of those two, when allied with their surprisingly excellent ball retention skills, results in a great deal of freedom being afforded to our centre-backs to split and then push up into (and even ahead of) the midfield if necessary - because opponents trying to break into the central spaces or send long balls forward will be shut down with brutal ease nine times out of ten, whatever their technical level or innate physicality.

If that analysis is correct, then Winks is at a disadvantage when trying to replace Dembele in that role - because, although he's surprisingly physical, strong in the tackle and excellent with the ball at his feet, he isn't Dembele or Wanyama-level strong, or as proficient in the air as those two. That doesn't mean he's detrimental to our chances of success in any given situation, of course - just means we might have to adapt to having him in there, since he'll bring a different set of skills to the role.
 
There was a tactical analysis of the way we play in the 3-4-2-1 floating around last week - I'll see if I can find it, but basically it apportions a good deal of credit for our solidity when using the system to the fact that we use Wanyama and Dembele as a double-pivot in central midfield. The sheer strength and size of those two, when allied with their surprisingly excellent ball retention skills, results in a great deal of freedom being afforded to our centre-backs to split and then push up into (and even ahead of) the midfield if necessary - because opponents trying to break into the central spaces or send long balls forward will be shut down with brutal ease nine times out of ten, whatever their technical level or innate physicality.

If that analysis is correct, then Winks is at a disadvantage when trying to replace Dembele in that role - because, although he's surprisingly physical, strong in the tackle and excellent with the ball at his feet, he isn't Dembele or Wanyama-level strong, or as proficient in the air as those two. That doesn't mean he's detrimental to our chances of success in any given situation, of course - just means we might have to adapt to having him in there, since he'll bring a different set of skills to the role.

Would be a interesting read if you could find it.

I would say its a fairly obvious observation that Poch (in general) values physicality in players, this team more than any in my Spurs time would be very difficult to bully physically. So says something about how he does value Winks. I don't see Winks as a Dembele replacement, I see him as more an evolution. Poch is not a manager with 10 years of playing one way, possession, high energy, pressure on opponents are certainly part of it, but formation and execution is evolving.

Just as the Dier shield changed our defensive capabilities, the 3 at back with Wanyama/Dembele shield has evolved that further, could Winks help change that again?
 
Would be a interesting read if you could find it.

I would say its a fairly obvious observation that Poch (in general) values physicality in players, this team more than any in my Spurs time would be very difficult to bully physically. So says something about how he does value Winks. I don't see Winks as a Dembele replacement, I see him as more an evolution. Poch is not a manager with 10 years of playing one way, possession, high energy, pressure on opponents are certainly part of it, but formation and execution is evolving.

Just as the Dier shield changed our defensive capabilities, the 3 at back with Wanyama/Dembele shield has evolved that further, could Winks help change that again?

Hard to buĺly physically yes, alas judging by our performances against city, Liverpool and Utd this season not mentally.
 
Hard to buĺly physically yes, alas judging by our performances against city, Liverpool and Utd this season not mentally.

Different conversation, here's my progress view on that

- We are no longer the team that you target physically and we fade away
- We now have a way to beat bottom teams with regularity, even those that sit back and park the bus.
- We also do well in general against teams who just come to play.

Where we have work to do

- We struggle against all out direct attack, especially where the opposition uses direct route to pacey options and overloads the attack (as our high line can leave very few defenders deep). This is seen in our struggles notably against Pool and somewhat (as with everyone last year) against Leicester. That to me is a tactical mistake/naivety vs. mentally weak
- United we have always struggled against, they are just a bogey team for us and sometimes those are hard to explain in sports. Also Jose to me is at his best when his opponents (no matter how good) are predictable.

But .. back to Winks ....
 
Only just joined the forum, but Winks is Marmite between my friends and me. I really can't see it. To me he is exactly like Mason, Bentaleb, and even Stephen Clemence. He passes the ball left to right and backwards, has loads of energy, but offers little more. He treats the ball like a hot potato and shows little confidence. Yes, he obviously has some ability, but to me he is a Hull/Stoke/West Brom player.

Just when I thought of giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Honestly, what are you expecting from this 21 year old, in his first proper season playing in the EPL?
 
Just when I thought of giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Honestly, what are you expecting from this 21 year old, in his first proper season playing in the EPL?
Based on his other posts he probably wants 100% pass completion in the style of Hoddle, bone-shattering tackles in the vein of Mackay, the guile and leadership of Blanchflower and the good looks and flowing locks of Ginola. Anything less and the youngster os fodder for Hull or Burnley.
 
Different conversation, here's my progress view on that

- We are no longer the team that you target physically and we fade away
- We now have a way to beat bottom teams with regularity, even those that sit back and park the bus.
- We also do well in general against teams who just come to play.

Where we have work to do

- We struggle against all out direct attack, especially where the opposition uses direct route to pacey options and overloads the attack (as our high line can leave very few defenders deep). This is seen in our struggles notably against Pool and somewhat (as with everyone last year) against Leicester. That to me is a tactical mistake/naivety vs. mentally weak
- United we have always struggled against, they are just a bogey team for us and sometimes those are hard to explain in sports. Also Jose to me is at his best when his opponents (no matter how good) are predictable.

But .. back to Winks ....

I think we struggle against those teams because they play the mind games and work the ref better. They know how to disrupt us.
 
Based on his other posts he probably wants 100% pass completion in the style of Hoddle, bone-shattering tackles in the vein of Mackay, the guile and leadership of Blanchflower and the good looks and flowing locks of Ginola. Anything less and the youngster os fodder for Hull or Burnley.

or as I describe it, Lamela
 
Would be a interesting read if you could find it.

I would say its a fairly obvious observation that Poch (in general) values physicality in players, this team more than any in my Spurs time would be very difficult to bully physically. So says something about how he does value Winks. I don't see Winks as a Dembele replacement, I see him as more an evolution. Poch is not a manager with 10 years of playing one way, possession, high energy, pressure on opponents are certainly part of it, but formation and execution is evolving.

Just as the Dier shield changed our defensive capabilities, the 3 at back with Wanyama/Dembele shield has evolved that further, could Winks help change that again?

great post, and my short answer is yes, I believe he can . I love Moose, so many positives, but ultimately, if Winks can help us access more opportunities to score by dovetailing with Wanyama (undroppable) and p[rompting a quicker turn of ball and opportunity, then he could indeed be an evolution. I think he can.
 
Like Kante, who does quite well. Or Gana Gueye.

Sure, but no one calls them particularly physically adept players - nor is Kante/Gana's size and strength a critical factor in the way their teams operate. Both of them bring other bonuses to their teams (relentless stamina and an unbelievable work-rate, in their cases) like Winks brings bonuses to our side in Dembele's absence (intelligent, accurate cross-field passing and forward play). But the point was that Dembele and Wanyama's physicality arguably forms a key component of what is widely acknowedged to be our most effective tactic (3-4-2-1), which means we'll have to adjust to Winks a bit if he becomes a first-team fixture.

Would be a interesting read if you could find it.

I would say its a fairly obvious observation that Poch (in general) values physicality in players, this team more than any in my Spurs time would be very difficult to bully physically. So says something about how he does value Winks. I don't see Winks as a Dembele replacement, I see him as more an evolution. Poch is not a manager with 10 years of playing one way, possession, high energy, pressure on opponents are certainly part of it, but formation and execution is evolving.

Just as the Dier shield changed our defensive capabilities, the 3 at back with Wanyama/Dembele shield has evolved that further, could Winks help change that again?

I haven't yet found that exact article, but I've found one which makes essentially the same argument -

https://talkingtottenhamtactics.wor...hy-the-way-we-press-might-be-holding-us-back/

Mousa's a unique sort of player, perfectly attuned to a man-oriented pressing system by dint of his unrivalled physicality and technicality allowing for us to break opposition players down while retaining possession ourselves. And Winks might struggle to replace him in the system we use, given his limitations in that department - even as he offers other strengths that could be used were we to tailor it a little bit to Winks' strengths.

I agree with your suggestion that Poch could evolve our tactical approach to include Winks, and I think he might try it if Winks improves even further. But he won't give us what Dembele does. That's not a slight on young Winks, because I can't think of many players across the length and breadth of world football that could pull off what Dembele pulls off on a regular basis - maybe Tiemoue Bakayoko at Monaco or Franck Kessie at Atlanta, but there are question marks over even them.

Ultimately, adaptation will be necessary, which wouldn't be the case with a player more naturally suited to stepping in for Dembele without a change in our system.
 
Different conversation, here's my progress view on that

- We are no longer the team that you target physically and we fade away
- We now have a way to beat bottom teams with regularity, even those that sit back and park the bus.
- We also do well in general against teams who just come to play.

Where we have work to do

- We struggle against all out direct attack, especially where the opposition uses direct route to pacey options and overloads the attack (as our high line can leave very few defenders deep). This is seen in our struggles notably against Pool and somewhat (as with everyone last year) against Leicester. That to me is a tactical mistake/naivety vs. mentally weak
- United we have always struggled against, they are just a bogey team for us and sometimes those are hard to explain in sports. Also Jose to me is at his best when his opponents (no matter how good) are predictable.

But .. back to Winks ....
I would also add to that list that we struggle badly against teams that engage us in a high press.
 
Apparently Spain are looking into his eligibility as he has Spanish grandparents.
Indeed. Would Winksy playing for Spain be a good or bad thing? It'd be great for his personal development, and therefore (hopefully) his effectiveness in the heart of the Spurs midfield. It'd be England's loss but, having seen how the likes of Hoddle, Scholes and even Carrick were utterly misused by England, is that such a bad thing?

Would he still count as a homegrown player?
 
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