Cheatski are still scum

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

What about Alf Ramsey? Wasn't his reputation as a defender based on his ability to play the ball out of defence?

As you chose to ignore part of what I said I'll repeat it. "Good players will come along and be able to control and pass the ball" a few managers (Nicholson, Mercer, Busby and Greenwood) did encourage a more fluid style. Ramsey was a very attacking fullback very different from the majority at the time.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Because his decision making and positioning skills are also poor. There seems to be a school of thought that being great on the ball and having good distribution are the most important part skills of goalkeepers and defenders these days and to hell with whether they can actually defend.

He's a young man with the confidence to play football with help and good coaching he could a very good player, I don't think it helped him playing for Martinez as he hasn't a clue about defending. I'd rather play Stones than Smalling who to my mind has not the mental strength to play at centreback despite having all the physical attributes.

 

[scaramanga]

Because his decision making and positioning skills are also poor. There seems to be a school of thought that being great on the ball and having good distribution are the most important part skills of goalkeepers and defenders these days and to hell with whether they can actually defend.

The more you have the ball, the less you have to defend.

What's better, a defender that avoids two opposition attacks by being better on the ball or a defender that makes two more tackles?

 

[Jurgen the German]

The more you have the ball, the less you have to defend.

What's better, a defender that avoids two opposition attacks by being better on the ball or a defender that makes two more tackles?

Ideally, you would want somewhere in between, not a defender who can dribble past two strikers but makes a suicidal backpass that puts his team in trouble or has poor positional play.

 

[Bullet]

This week Toby said he learned skills at Ajax, then learned how to defend and the mentality of a good defender, under Simeone at Atleti. Perfect schooling. Skills vs defending is not an "either/or" situation, Toby has it all in his glistening thighs

 

[parklane1]

Wasn't part of the problem with British defenders that British managers wanted them to get stuck in and not f*** about with the ball. When I started playing in the 50's defenders were expected to kick the ball as far away from goal as possible, the tactic hardly changed, Charles Hughes was the head of FA coaching in the 90's and his theory was drummed in the coaching system. Good players will come along and be able to control and pass the ball but the majority will be limited and that system stops defenders developing. Just look and England centrebacks, they continue to do their "Chuckle Brother" routine, "from me to you" in possession and bring the game to a standstill. Only Stones appears to have the confidence to move forward with the ball and he is endlessly criticized.

tickle my balls with a feather, i first started my badges in the early 90's and Hughes was a GHod at the FA. Just reading through his gospel brought tears to a few coaches eyes. Its a system which is still followed by a couple of managers ( Pullis and Fat Sam) thankfully its been thrown out by most that followed.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

This week Toby said he learned skills at Ajax, then learned how to defend and the mentality of a good defender, under Simeone at Atleti. Perfect schooling. Skills vs defending is not an "either/or" situation, Toby has it all in his glistening thighs

And somehow Ledley learnt it all at whl.

What a player.

 

[Bullet]

And somehow Ledley learnt it all at whl.

What a player.

Ledley learnt it on Mount Olympus, when he slid out of Zeus' womb.

 

[scaramanga]

This week Toby said he learned skills at Ajax, then learned how to defend and the mentality of a good defender, under Simeone at Atleti. Perfect schooling. Skills vs defending is not an "either/or" situation, Toby has it all in his glistening thighs

That's not the English way though (until very recently).

The English way has always been big lads at the back little ones on the wing. Stronger = better. Never think, just lump it clear, etc.

Skill first should always be the way but it unfortunately isn't.

 

[parklane1]

That's not the English way though (until very recently).

The English way has always been big lads at the back little ones on the wing. Stronger = better. Never think, just lump it clear, etc.

Skill first should always be the way but it unfortunately isn't.

You are right on that, however it is changing ( slowly in some cases) i still keep my eye in and having been around a few academys over the last year or so its far more concentrated on ability then it was for years.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

I blame Ramsey (tongue in cheek) and his wingless wonders, workrate and negativity became the template for teams and tricky wingers and "lightweight" inside forwards started to disappear.

 

[Jurgen the German]

That's not the English way though (until very recently).

The English way has always been big lads at the back little ones on the wing. Stronger = better. Never think, just lump it clear, etc.

Skill first should always be the way but it unfortunately isn't.

Skill is always important but that doesn't mean you should just ignore if a defender can't defend, which seems to be happening more often these days.

 

[scaramanga]

Skill is always important but that doesn't mean you should just ignore if a defender can't defend, which seems to be happening more often these days.

I don't think that's happening at all.

For the case in point, Luiz does all the stuff a good defender does (in the outdated sense) except that he is more error prone. For me, that is a cost (when not shopping in the top pool) of having a defender that thinks rather than one that just punts it into row Z.

 

[Bullet]

I don't think that's happening at all.

For the case in point, Luiz does all the stuff a good defender does (in the outdated sense) except that he is more error prone. For me, that is a cost (when not shopping in the top pool) of having a defender that thinks rather than one that just punts it into row Z.

No - Luiz dives in when he can't win the ball, he dribbles when he shouldn't, he marauds around and loses the ball, he does not provide a reliable partner for his centre back, he is not a good defender.

 

[jts1882]

That's not the English way though (until very recently).

The English way has always been big lads at the back little ones on the wing. Stronger = better. Never think, just lump it clear, etc.

Skill first should always be the way but it unfortunately isn't.

It doesn't even need to be the philosophy.

If results matter, then the big young lad who can overwhelm attackers and hoof it will be a better bet. That means a smaller more skilled defender will get overlooked in young age groups.

Proper long-term player development needs to look at more than the short-term results. Hopefully the recent changes you hint at will make a difference. I fear that the changes are only at the elite clubs and that the vast majority of kids still face the old way. The Huths may no longer dominate the academies, but they will still be key in schools and at the park.

 

[parklane1]

It doesn't even need to be the philosophy.

If results matter, then the big young lad who can overwhelm attackers and hoof it will be a better bet. That means a smaller more skilled defender will get overlooked in young age groups.

Proper long-term player development needs to look at more than the short-term results. Hopefully the recent changes you hint at will make a difference. I fear that the changes are only at the elite clubs and that the vast majority of kids still face the old way. The Huths may no longer dominate the academies, but they will still be key in schools and at the park.

And that is one of the reasons a lot of academys have said that none of their players can play for their schools etc. To many hairy arsed game teachers yelling " get rid, knock it long, get stuck in". etc.

 

[scaramanga]

It doesn't even need to be the philosophy.

If results matter, then the big young lad who can overwhelm attackers and hoof it will be a better bet. That means a smaller more skilled defender will get overlooked in young age groups.

Proper long-term player development needs to look at more than the short-term results. Hopefully the recent changes you hint at will make a difference. I fear that the changes are only at the elite clubs and that the vast majority of kids still face the old way. The Huths may no longer dominate the academies, but they will still be key in schools and at the park.

Outside of the UK, kids are often graded in weight classes like boxing rather than by age.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No - Luiz dives in when he can't win the ball, he dribbles when he shouldn't, he marauds around and loses the ball, he does not provide a reliable partner for his centre back, he is not a good defender.

Agreed - he may be able to pass and do technical stuff but he can't actually defend

It's like having a golfer who can put amazingly well but has no long game

Or a tennis player that can't play at the net

In this day and age to be a top player you have to be able to do the basics very well as well as the "good stuff"

And on the subject of coaching, one of the best things I read about was the Brazilian coin system. Basically the kids turn up and take a coin which in turn has a number in it and that's their position for the game. It means players have an awareness of other positions and creates flexibility. That in turn means players can adapt but also be string defensively and as well as attack and maybe okay both sides of the pitch or even in goal

I don't know how commonly it's used but I love that ideal

 

[Rorschach]

And that is one of the reasons a lot of academys have said that none of their players can play for their schools etc. To many hairy arsed game teachers yelling " get rid, knock it long, get stuck in". etc.

How do you know their arses are hairy?

 

[Lemonade Money]

How do you know their arses are hairy?

Don't go there.