Robspur12
Pedro Mendes
Yep that's right he's greatest manager that Spurs have ever had or at least in your head.
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The 'If You Still Need to Purge Yourself Of Ange' Thread
- Thread starter thfcsteff
- Start date
tommysvr
Paul Stalteri
Where on earth have you ever read that from me?
I don't think even Tommy is stupid enough to think that a manager that has been sacked twice in 5 months is our greatest ever manager
afsoc4life
Alf Ramsey
Some of the people posting in the last few days are making a strong stick for their back. I wonder what they would do if Frank can't better Ange's time at the club i.e., a trophy.
And yes Ange had a stupid period at Forest which from day -1, I personally felt he should have stayed away from there.
And yes Ange had a stupid period at Forest which from day -1, I personally felt he should have stayed away from there.
afsoc4life
Alf Ramsey
Stop it. We were all here. We all understood why we finished 5th that season.
Ange got sacked because we put up the worst league performance in our history with no sign of being able to improve - if Frank doesn't better that then he will rightly be sacked as well, cup trophy or no cup trophy and I don't think anyone would argue against it.
You are coming at this from a strange angle imv - id like to think most people support the club, not individual managers- why would anyone be making a rod for their own back with that in mind? People support the manager if they think they are doing a good job or show signs that they are on the right path - if they don't think the manager is the right man for the job then they don't- it's pretty simple
Baleforce
Chris Waddle
DeanoAustin
Paul Walsh
Credit to Ange for the Europa. It was a great achievement and no one can ever take it away from him and people shouldn’t try to devalue it.
But reigns shouldn’t be judged solely by a trophy. It’s more than that. Harry Redknapp and Poch were much better managers for this club than Ange, Ramos or Graham IMO. It’s not even close for me.
Baleforce
Chris Waddle
that will happen when your tactical instruction contains such gems as, never mark the man at the far post
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Paul Stalteri
In the spirit of debate, how do you square Amorim with this idea of seeing no improvement? Also responding to another idea I’ve seen that patience is earned.
Because I would argue in this context that offering patience to a manager is when you DONT see improvement. It’s easy to stick with someone if you’re dominating games and getting unlucky. It’s harder if you’re buying into an idea and actually seeing complete inconsistency for a year plus.
In this reading, I would say that United have shown patience, and up to the Grimsby game Amorim didn’t really show great signs of improvement of having deserved that patience. But now things have started to click. I would say there’s a world in which we say to Ange ‘thank you for the Europa League, and thank you for making the season a historic success despite a ridiculous injury crisis, now let’s see what you can do with hopefully a normalised injury list and a CL campaign.’ THAT would have been showing patience. In the same way United have done with Amorim.
Amorim hasn't even been at United a full year yet so I'm not sure your point there holds any weight.
Giving Postecoglou a third season would have been beyond patience and just outright blind faith bordering on negligence/self-sabotage
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SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Paul Stalteri
Ok…maybe my point will hold some weight in 6 days
Well no and that's the point - if Amorim carries on the poor form in to 18/24 months rather than finding a solution then there might be a comparison
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Paul Stalteri
Look…my point was that a year is enough time to show improvement, to show a ‘right path’ and that Amorim hadn’t really shown that in terms of performances. But United were showing him patience.
Ange finishing 5th in his first season with a 59 point run rate from the last 19 games of that season, while clearly implementing a style of play and rebuilding the team after the loss of Kane is levels above anything Amorim outwardly showed in his first year. I would argue he earns enough credit and credibility from that, to then have earned the trust to say ‘trust me on prioritising Europa over the PL, and I’ll deliver us a trophy’, to then give him a fair shot at the 3rd season.
Clearly it didn’t happen. My point is simply that I don’t think patience is something that is earned. Patience is actually something that is demonstrated when it is really hard to give. And that’s what United did with Amorim. Because there are plenty of new managers that do have more of an immediate impact results wise. And plenty of clubs that let managers go when results aren’t immediate. I would say Ange earned more patience but we didn’t afford him the same, and that’s fine, the decision is made. But if United could afford Amorim patience after his first year, I would say Ange did more than enough in his first two to have earned the trust to see what he could do in a third.
What do you mean afford him patience after his first year - he hasn't even been in charge a year yet as already established
chances are if he doesn't build upon this mini run of form that they've come across and his ppg were to hover around what it has been for the majority of his time he'd be out the door in a shorter time frame than what Ange had here.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Paul Stalteri
What do you mean afford him patience after his first year - he hasn't even been in charge a year yet as already established
You can’t seriously be holding up the fact that he is 6 days from the end of his first year to invalidate my point here? As I’ve said, there’s plenty of teams that would have sacked Amorim way sooner, and plenty of other managers that would have gotten better results and performances from a first year (minus 6 days). That Amorim has gone 1 year (minus 6 days) with those kinds of performances and results suggests that United have shown him a lot of patience.
And this goes back to what I was saying. Patience is easy to give if you’re dominating games and just getting unlucky. It’s harder to give if results and performances aren’t there. You need a deeper level of trust and belief in the approach of the manager and his staff.
As it relates to Ange, I am arguing that he did enough in 2 years, with two seasons each offering their own unique challenges, that if we had so chose, we could have truly offered patience and trust. We didn’t, and you didn’t think we should. That’s ok. There’s no definitive right or wrong here. Willingness to offer patience is clearly on a spectrum from Maranakis at one extreme end to other owners on the other. Of course time will tell as to whether Amorim truly delivers for United, but they have clearly decided he deserves patience. Not because of results and performances, but because of a belief in his work. Your personal view of Ange is that he was showing no signs of improvement and hadn’t earned the trust, others might disagree, especially when there are examples of other clubs and other managers getting time for their ideas to bare fruit, after initially looking like they wouldn’t. And yes I would say one year (minus 6 days) is enough for a lot of clubs to draw a conclusion around that.
United are currently 6th in the table, what patience have they had to show this season, that's part of why I'm questioning the 12 months thing - he joined in November so we're talking 6-7 months not 12 of bad form. That said plenty of United fans been calling him out as a bad appointment all through last season and the summer.
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SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Paul Stalteri
Just to flesh out what I’m saying a bit more, as it seems like you are saying that because Ange’s second season added to the second half of his first means he doesn’t deserve trust and patience, I see a world where:
The drop off from the first half to the second half of his first season could be read as ‘ok, really solid foundations built, the football looks great when it clicks, but clearly you need more squad depth and some better one v one wingers to make your system truly work, so let’s give you those and see how you do next year’. Then we bank that season, and move on, accepting the evaluation of the time.
Then the next season it might be ‘oh wow, there’s no way we can expect the team to be playing the best version of your football with all of these injuries, plus this schedule, and oh yeah the one v one wingers are all injured or have weird viruses that keep them out for months, this must be really hard, let’s try and make something of this season though. Oh wow! You won the Europa, thank you, hopefully you never have to suffer another season like that again, let’s go again next year!’
See what I’m saying? If you purely draw a straight line from one season to the next, rather than appreciate the context of what was happening, and the nuance of the good and bad, then of course it looks like a downward line. But with all of that variance we might have had an upswing again. My point is; there’s a world in which we showed patience to Ange, because we believed in his work and what he was doing. You are very definitive that it never would have worked.
As it is, I also think there’s a world in which the club made a smart move, seeing where the game and the league was going in terms of physicality and set pieces, and wanted to be on trend with Frank, as otherwise under Ange our smaller trickier players would get destroyed on set pieces. I’m not even saying that the club did the wrong thing. I’m simply saying there’s a world in which a different decision was made, and things turned out ok. There’s a world in which we actually offered patience, because we believed in something. You are very sure based on what happened at Spurs under Ange that things could not have improved, and I simply don’t think it’s possible to know that for sure.
The drop off from the first half to the second half of his first season could be read as ‘ok, really solid foundations built, the football looks great when it clicks, but clearly you need more squad depth and some better one v one wingers to make your system truly work, so let’s give you those and see how you do next year’. Then we bank that season, and move on, accepting the evaluation of the time.
Then the next season it might be ‘oh wow, there’s no way we can expect the team to be playing the best version of your football with all of these injuries, plus this schedule, and oh yeah the one v one wingers are all injured or have weird viruses that keep them out for months, this must be really hard, let’s try and make something of this season though. Oh wow! You won the Europa, thank you, hopefully you never have to suffer another season like that again, let’s go again next year!’
See what I’m saying? If you purely draw a straight line from one season to the next, rather than appreciate the context of what was happening, and the nuance of the good and bad, then of course it looks like a downward line. But with all of that variance we might have had an upswing again. My point is; there’s a world in which we showed patience to Ange, because we believed in his work and what he was doing. You are very definitive that it never would have worked.
As it is, I also think there’s a world in which the club made a smart move, seeing where the game and the league was going in terms of physicality and set pieces, and wanted to be on trend with Frank, as otherwise under Ange our smaller trickier players would get destroyed on set pieces. I’m not even saying that the club did the wrong thing. I’m simply saying there’s a world in which a different decision was made, and things turned out ok. There’s a world in which we actually offered patience, because we believed in something. You are very sure based on what happened at Spurs under Ange that things could not have improved, and I simply don’t think it’s possible to know that for sure.