Our defenders - rated overall in their time with Spurs

[Grays_1890]

If they are taking mostly defensive actions then they'll constantly be deep and fighting fire. We've had this problem previously when the whole team ends up in our own penalty box and can't get out. We need the middle two to have a little freedom to play forward and not constantly be covering in.

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I would imagine there is not another side in the league whose fullbacks offer less cover than ours did at the weekend. Its not about going ultra defensive its about defending as a unit and earning the right to play. We were all over the shop at the weekend, in all elements

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I would imagine there is not another side in the league whose fullbacks offer less cover than ours did at the weekend. Its not about going ultra defensive its about defending as a unit and earning the right to play. We were all over the shop at the weekend, in all elements

Against city we defended from the front
We held the ball up and allowed Dier to step into midfield well
against lestah our forwards lost ball constantly meaning it came back all the time and put the defence under unnecessary pressure
And knowing how poor the regency is it causes more and more issues

 

[Bishop]

It's not taking mostly defensive actions. When we lose the ball they should be dropping and tracking runners from midfield.
Do you see any team were the midfielders and forwards twiddle their thumbs while their team is on the defensive?
No, they drop and help the defense.

But ours aren't capable of this. We've seen it multiple times. They end up sitting deeper and deeper until it's all rear guard action.

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[metalgear]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1565642240223236101

not sure about the source but looks accurate to me

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yeh but i never said it was just because the two in midfield was poor, i have been vocal and critical on here of Conte who clearly has no intention of reverting to a 3 in midfield when that seems to be an option.

Sarr or Skipp are clearly more defensive minded by nature than PEH and Bentancur and would offer more cover playing in a three with those two, PEH is clearly better as shown in internationals going the other way.

Like I say it's not a defence of the defence as they made rank bad decisions at times but equally some of the decisions on the teams sheet ain't helping them.



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I'll just make the same point again though.... If playing three at the back then we shouldn't need to have 'a defensive minded by nature' (whatever that is) player in our two man midfield. We already have an extra man at the back by playing with 3 CBs. If we can't defend well enough with 3 CBs covering the middle then either the formation is wrong (I think it is, at least for the players we possess) or at least one of the 3 CBs is not good enough (I also believe this to be true).

 

[Finney Is Back]

The midfielders still need to do the defensive side of the game or do you think that 3 CBs should be able to cope with teams that have 5 or 6 in attacking moves? The midfield 2 don't have to sit in front of the back 3 but they do need to track the runners from midfield and not just stand and watch them run unmarked into our box. That has happened loads of times this season and led directly to goals.

Our midfield two play as a double pivot and defend and attack. The 3 CBs should be able cope with men into the box yes. Most teams have only two CBs plus a deep lying midfielder and cope with the opposition getting men into the box with those 3 central players. If the opposition are playing a number 10 type player then it absolutely should be our central CB who picks him up, after all he is the 'spare' man and what else does he actually do in the match if not this?

 

[DubSpur]

Our midfield two play as a double pivot and defend and attack. The 3 CBs should be able cope with men into the box yes. Most teams have only two CBs plus a deep lying midfielder and cope with the opposition getting men into the box with those 3 central players. If the opposition are playing a number 10 type player then it absolutely should be our central CB who picks him up, after all he is the 'spare' man and what else does he actually do in the match if not this?

Ok, most teams play with some variation of a 433, so you're happy for our CBs to mark the 3 forwards and also be responsible for runners from midfield.
Fair enough, I'd rather we had at least an even number of players defending as there are attacking (preferably more) but if you're happy with 3 against 4 or 5...

 

[Grays_1890]

I'll just make the same point again though.... If playing three at the back then we shouldn't need to have 'a defensive minded by nature' (whatever that is) player in our two man midfield. We already have an extra man at the back by playing with 3 CBs. If we can't defend well enough with 3 CBs covering the middle then either the formation is wrong (I think it is, at least for the players we possess) or at least one of the 3 CBs is not good enough (I also believe this to be true).

So a back three can have 4/5 players flood them because they midfield and WBs get over run or not tracking and be expected to pick up every runner just because there are 3 of them? That's a slightly ridiculous notion.

As I said its not even just about the midfield, im noy a Japhet fan but was he helped or not helped by Porro getting skinned three times in the first half?

Was Davies helped by Perisics in ability to track and help on his side (not for the first time)

If you are being totally honest about it you know that they are not the only ones complicit In the defensive issues from the weekend

We need to improve the defense in the market, that doesnt mean the team can all play like crap and offer them zero coverage and get away with it

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[Finney Is Back]

Ok, most teams play with some variation of a 433, so you're happy for our CBs to mark the 3 forwards and also be responsible for runners from midfield.
Fair enough, I'd rather we had at least an even number of players defending as there are attacking (preferably more) but if you're happy with 3 against 4 or 5...

No…. ‘Most’ teams do indeed play a variation of 4-3-3…. In defence the full backs for those teams will pick up the opposition’s wide forwards and their 2 CBs and defensive midfielder will pick up the opposition’s CF and attacking central midfielder between them.
In our formation, the wing backs pick up the wide forwards as most teams’ fullbacks do, so we then have 3 CBs often picking up only 1 player. We already have the ‘spare’ man as one of the 3 CBs, those 3 at the back aren’t outnumbered and we tend to often see that on goals conceded when 1 or even 2 of them aren’t picking up a player.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So a back three can have 4/5 players flood them because they midfield and WBs get over run or not tracking and be expected to pick up every runner just because there are 3 of them? That's a slightly ridiculous notion.

As I said its not even just about the midfield, im noy a Japhet fan but was he helped or not helped by Porro getting skinned three times in the first half?

Was Davies helped by Perisics in ability to track and help on his side (not for the first time)

If you are being totally honest about it you know that they are not the only ones complicit In the defensive issues from the weekend.

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You don’t think our 3 at the back were complicit in our defensive issues at the weekend?

It is also rare to never that our back 3 are flooded with 4 or 5 players. Our wing backs pick up the wide forwards, leaving 3 CBs to pick up the (generally) lone CF that most team’s employ and a runner from midfield (often a number 10 type player). If the opposition gamble on a second midfield runner going into the box then a player in our double pivot midfield 2 will typically track him. You’re basically asking for our midfield to play as though we’re shaped to have an extra man there despite giving up that in order to instead have an extra (spare) man in the centre of defence.

 

[DubSpur]

No…. ‘Most’ teams do indeed play a variation of 4-3-3…. In defence the full backs for those teams will pick up the opposition’s wide forwards and their 2 CBs and defensive midfielder will pick up the opposition’s CF and attacking central midfielder between them.
In our formation, the wing backs pick up the wide forwards as most teams’ fullbacks do, so we then have 3 CBs often picking up only 1 player. We already have the ‘spare’ man as one of the 3 CBs, those 3 at the back aren’t outnumbered and we tend to often see that for goals when 1 or even 2 of them aren’t picking up a player.

No, the WBs won't pick up the wide forwards, it's not that simple. With full backs attacking, the WBs will be expected to cover them, and with wide forwards attacking the box the wide CBs will be expected to cover them. Midfield have to cover runners from midfield. Look at any match and there's times when there will be 3+ players in the box, full backs pushing on wide and then players arriving from midfield to around the edge of the box. Everyone has responsibility when we are defending, not just the defenders.

 

[DubSpur]

You don’t think our 3 at the back were complicit in our defensive issues at the weekend?

Has anyone said they were not complicit? The whole team was.

 

[Finney Is Back]

No, the WBs won't pick up the wide forwards, it's not that simple. With full backs attacking, the WBs will be expected to cover them, and with wide forwards attacking the box the wide CBs will be expected to cover them. Midfield have to cover runners from midfield. Look at any match and there's times when there will be 3+ players in the box, full backs pushing on wide and then players arriving from midfield to around the edge of the box. Everyone has responsibility when we are defending, not just the defenders.

That is exactly what our wingbacks do,they pick up the opposition’s wide forwards, our wide forwards are then the ones who come back to pick up the opposition’s fullbacks. If the opposition get 3 players into our box then it is typically where they have the ball out wide, in this situation our wingback from the other side will then tuck in (see how many far post headers Royal contests for example) and give us at least equal numbers in there.

Teams that play an extra man in central midfield than we do and one less than we do in the centre of their defence will of course have a midfield player who will always get himself back close to the centre backs when his team are defending. We already have that man in the centre of our defence…. What is it that you feel the extra man in the centre of our defence is actually there to do?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Has anyone said they were not complicit? The whole team was.

I agree that it wasn’t solely on our back three against Leicester, Porro was terrible and Perisic has shown himself to be a poor defender all season. However I originally came on address the all too frequent blame that our central midfield 2 get for our losses and goals conceded when they are pretty much always outnumbered and should never be having to pick up the opposition’s ‘number 10’ type player.

 

[DubSpur]

I agree that it wasn’t solely on our back three against Leicester, Porro was terrible and Perisic has shown himself to be a poor defender all season. However I originally came on address the all too frequent blame that our central midfield 2 get for our losses and goals conceded when they are pretty much always outnumbered and should never be having to pick up the opposition’s ‘number 10’ type player.

Who mentioned picking up the number 10? Look at the goals we concede, there are a large number were our midfield has not tracked midfielders that ran past them from deep.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Who mentioned picking up the number 10? Look at the goals we concede, there are a large number were our midfield has not tracked midfielders that ran past them from deep.

Which goals?…. There was one where Bissouma didn’t track his man a while ago, I suspect that’s one of the reasons why Conte wasn’t picking him when he was fit. Which others?

 

[DubSpur]

That is exactly what our wingbacks do,they pick up the opposition’s wide forwards, our wide forwards are then the ones who come back to pick up the opposition’s fullbacks. If the opposition get 3 players into our box then it is typically where they have the ball out wide, in this situation our wingback from the other side will then tuck in (see how many far post headers Royal contests for example) and give us at least equal numbers in there.

Teams that play an extra man in central midfield than we do and one less than we do in the centre of their defence will of course have a midfield player who will always get himself back close to the centre backs when his team are defending. We already have that man in the centre of our defence…. What is it that you feel the extra man in the centre of our defence is actually there to do?

Our wingbacks don't pick up the wide forwards when a FB is getting forward. Our wide forwards give fudge all help defensively. Kulu gives some, Son nothing, the amount of times that the WB has been left 2 on 1 by Son.

Anyway, you see it as mainly a CB problem, I see it as not defending properly as a unit, we'll never agree, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Grays_1890]

You don’t think our 3 at the back were complicit in our defensive issues at the weekend?

It is also rare to never that our back 3 are flooded with 4 or 5 players. Our wing backs pick up the wide forwards, leaving 3 CBs to pick up the (generally) lone CF that most team’s employ and a runner from midfield (often a number 10 type player). If the opposition gamble on a second midfield runner going into the box then a player in our double pivot midfield 2 will typically track him. You’re basically asking for our midfield to play as though we’re shaped to have an extra man there despite giving up that in order to instead have an extra (spare) man in the centre of defence.

I have already said numerous times that we need to improve the defence and that they are a weak link, but they are being needlessly exposed by their team mates. Perisics lack of closing down and Porro getting absolutely blitzed, thats not on them regardless of how much more blame people may want to pile on to them

It might be generally rare but it was not at the weekend, they could have scored 7/8 and it would have been fair, there was absolutely no effort and mistakes from those infront and around them that made the job 10 x harder for an already poor back line. I love Sarr but there were a couple of times we lost the ball and he let the game go past him and he ambled back as they broke.

Im all for calling out bad players but that whole performance at Leicester was a team problem not just the defence although they were the major part of it

 

[Grays_1890]

Which goals?…. There was one where Bissouma didn’t track his man a while ago, I suspect that’s one of the reasons why Conte wasn’t picking him when he was fit. Which others?

The three against City where Perisic negleted his defensive duties were pretty glaring

 

[Finney Is Back]

Our wingbacks don't pick up the wide forwards when a FB is getting forward. Our wide forwards give fudge all help defensively. Kulu gives some, Son nothing, the amount of times that the WB has been left 2 on 1 by Son.

Anyway, you see it as mainly a CB problem, I see it as not defending properly as a unit, we'll never agree, so I'll leave it at that.

They absolutely do, occasionally our wing back will pass on the opposition’s wide player to Kulu/Son if the full back makes an underlapping run.

I looked at the Leicester goals again.
Goal 1 - a half cleared corner and no,desire from Perisic to get out to their player
Goal 2 - a dangerous pass from Davies thats 50-50 for us to win at best and Tanganga, Dier and Davies in horrible positions miles apart as the transition happened, goal scored by Maddison, their number 10.
Goal 3 - Dier in an awful position, 20 yards behind the two other CBs. Simple long ball into Inhacho’s feet as a result, Dier than stands off of him for ages until Inacho eventually has a clear shot into the corner
Goal 4 - Maddison, gives it to Barnes who has come inside, Dier (despite being spare) doesn’t close him down and he has a simple shot to the corner.

Goals 2, 3 and 4 likely wouldn’t have been scored against a competent back 3.