Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

do you think that will happen though, surely only one side can come out happy however any vote is structured?

Part of the problem will be all the options stacked to remain/BINO.

Whatever the result, either itll be argued the ballot was already weighted, or those options split the vote (and on aggregate Remain got more) and we'll be right back where we are now.

 

[StephenH]

do you think that will happen though, surely only one side can come out happy however any vote is structured?

feck happy!
Happy is never going to happen! have you seen some of the nutters in this thread?
It must be fair and done!

 

[Baleforce]

Part of the problem will be all the options stacked to remain/BINO.

Whatever the result, either itll be argued the ballot was already weighted, or those options split the vote (and on aggregate Remain got more) and we'll be right back where we are now.

Is there an argument to say balance isn’t possible* so it’s all in or all out, revoke or no deal?

*Based on May's deal being considered a bad deal by both sides.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Is there an argument to say balance isn’t possible so it’s all in or all out, revoke or no deal?

I think that is much more clear cut, but then the more moderate (majority, most likely) have nothing to really vote for.

I think what we really need is an extension to the withdrawal process, and for Boris to negotiate a deal with the very real threat of a no deal Brexit, and see what can be agreed.

And then see about voting for it, depending on how obvious a good/bad option it is.

As soon as they thought he would pull the trigger the language coming out of the EU changed a lot. I would be very interested to see what can actually be agreed when the UK is negotiation with a full deck and not one hand tied behind its back.

 

[StephenH]

Part of the problem will be all the options stacked to remain/BINO.

Whatever the result, either itll be argued the ballot was already weighted, or those options split the vote (and on aggregate Remain got more) and we'll be right back where we are now.

Nope, because ballot paper content is agreed and voted on and passed into law!

Then we all vote!

Finished!

 

[Baleforce]

I think that is much more clear cut, but then the more moderate (majority, most likely) have nothing to really vote for.

I think what we really need is an extension to the withdrawal process, and for Boris to negotiate a deal with the very real threat of a no deal Brexit, and see what can be agreed.

And then see about voting for it, depending on how obvious a good/bad option it is.

As soon as they thought he would pull the trigger the language coming out of the EU changed a lot. I would be very interested to see what can actually be agreed when the UK is negotiation with a full deck and not one hand tied behind its back.

I don't believe thats possible, we'd never leave with no deal with the current infrastructure, people would die. If they want that ruse to work (and I don't believe under any circumstances it could), we'd need a ten year extension and billions of pounds worth of investment into border controls first.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Nope, because ballot paper content is agreed and voted on and passed into law!

Then we all vote!

Finished!

Like the first time you mean?.....

I don't believe thats possible, we'd never leave with no deal with the current infrastructure, people would die. If they want that ruse to work (and I don't believe under any circumstances it could), we'd need a ten year extension and billions of pounds worth of investment into border controls first.

We would have the extension to continue preparations. And regardless of how successful you personally feel they would be, the EU need to know its a very real possibility. Only then do we see what sort of deal can actually be arrived at.

 

[StephenH]

Like the first time you mean?.....

No, because before there were no options or even discussion regarding leave or remain and any detailed debate of what either really meant to the man in the street.
It was a fete complete as leave turned into 'no deal' before our very eyes, just as it was always designed to be in the ERG stitch-up/strategy but they got found out and people started to ask questions that was fatal for the original Brexteer's strategy.
It was a hail mary play from Brexiteers, once they had their ball 'the holy grail' aka the referendum in their hands it was a headlong rush to get it done.
Delay as they guessed rightly would lead to scrutiny and debate and that was their true enemy.

 

[scaramanga]

No, because before there were no options or even discussion regarding leave or remain and any detailed debate of what either really meant to the man in the street.
It was a fete complete as leave turned into 'no deal' before our very eyes just as it was always designed to be in the ERG a stitch-up/strategy but they got found out.
It was a hail mary play from Brexiteers, once they had their ball 'the holy grail' aka the referendum in their hands it was a headlong rush to get it done.
Delay as they guessed rightly would lead to scrutiny and debate and that was their true enemy.

Ah, the old "public is too stupid to vote for what parliament really wants so we'll keep asking until they get it right" tactic. Reminds me of the EU and Ireland.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

No, because before there were no options or even discussion regarding leave or remain and any detailed debate of what either really meant to the man in the street.
It was a fete complete as leave turned into 'no deal' before our very eyes, just as it was always designed to be in the ERG stitch-up/strategy but they got found out and people started to ask questions that was fatal for the original Brexteer's strategy.
It was a hail mary play from Brexiteers, once they had their ball 'the holy grail' aka the referendum in their hands it was a headlong rush to get it done.
Delay as they guessed rightly would lead to scrutiny and debate and that was their true enemy.

The ballot paper content was agreed upon and passed into law. It was brick, but it was exactly what you want to happen in a second vote. Same as the first...

Except, you want it to run again to get the "right" answer (shades of Lisbon 'treaty').

Except, if that happens, what on earth makes you think thatll be the end of it? THe precedent is set. Doesnt matter what the answer is, we can just obscure and obstruct and do what the hell we want anyway...

 

[StephenH]

Ah, the old "public is too stupid to vote for what parliament really wants so we'll keep asking until they get it right" tactic. Reminds me of the EU and Ireland.

That's was what the ERG was banking on and it came close to working.
They had their vote - leave was renamed 'no deal' and they nearly did it.
Fortunately, and here we are.

The public is not stupid if they are permitted time to think things through and scrutinise the ramification of these life-changing decisions.

 

[StephenH]

It was brick

So let us ALL make sure the next one isn't.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So let us ALL make sure the next one isn't.

As you can see - we dont ALL get a say at all. The government arent even at the wheel right now thanks to the rebels.

Lets do the vote again. Guess what? People wont be happy, so
Lets do the vote again. Guess what? People wont be happy, so
Lets do the vote again. Guess what? People wont be happy, so
Lets do the vote again. Guess what? People wont be happy....

This is what politics is becoming, and thats not the ERGs fault.

 

[parklane1]

No, because before there were no options or even discussion regarding leave or remain and any detailed debate of what either really meant to the man in the street.
It was a fete complete as leave turned into 'no deal' before our very eyes, just as it was always designed to be in the ERG stitch-up/strategy but they got found out and people started to ask questions that was fatal for the original Brexteer's strategy.
It was a hail mary play from Brexiteers, once they had their ball 'the holy grail' aka the referendum in their hands it was a headlong rush to get it done.
Delay as they guessed rightly would lead to scrutiny and debate and that was their true enemy.

That my friend is total gonad*s.

 

[StephenH]

The ERG most certainly are hugely complicit in this. I was a key strategy.

We must have a lengthy period for scrutiny and explanation for such decisions.
The canvassing and information used during these events must be held to account or accuracy.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I guess it comes down to whether you view (some proportion of) the losers of a democratic exercise bitching and moaning and doing everything they can to sabotage the enaction of the result as a valid reason for not doing something.

And I guess that'll be just another thing we disagree on.

Would you yourself, if you were a representative of the people, knowingly impose a TYPE of brexit onto them that would leave them worse off? The ERG wouldn't. You would?

We live in a representative democracy. The vote was advisory. And it all came about to placate the Tory party. It was sold on controlling immigration - something that has now disappeared from national debate and Farage's mantra. It was also sold on more money for the NHS - something that is highly unlikely with the UK probably a lot worse off with a no deal exit. The idea of 'taking back control' is a strong idea - but pull it apart and it is a nice catch phrase with not that much behind it. Tell me an EU law you have beef with? Most of them are about free trade, pollution control and workers rights. Some would say brexit was misold to the people. That the negative impacts of brexit are mainly economic, concerning trade, as well as the way it threatens the united kingdom. On the flip side the benifits of brexit are almost impossible to outline. If that is not true - outline them.

...yet MPs should impose somthing with results that people didn't vote for, onto people?

Those who I hear "bitching and moaning" at the moment are those lamenting brexit. Blaming its failiurers on others. It was Howard Webs fault. No, we should have played better, brexit itself was not good enough. Stand up and look at the inherent problems that come with brexit. Problems that need resolving. Clever people - MPs, people at the EU, academics, economists - couldn't square the brexit circle. Couldn't find something that works well for us. There were inherent problems from the outset. I know its easier to blame others, but it is far less productive.

 

[scaramanga]

That's was what the ERG was banking on and it came close to working.
They had their vote - leave was renamed 'no deal' and they nearly did it.
Fortunately, and here we are.

The public is not stupid if they are permitted time to think things through and scrutinise the ramification of these life-changing decisions.

The public wasn't given a chance to show that one way or the other, because magic grandpa took a dive

 

[StephenH]

The public wasn't given a chance to show that one way or the other, because magic grandpa took a dive

time to think not to vote!

 

[SpurMeUp]

But would remain roll the dice and allow no deal as an option?

Although no deal and Norway deal (eg) would probably split the leave vote and remain would win.

That is solvable. You have in, out with options under out. I think you would want to put no deal on as an option. And pray people are not stupid enough to vote for it.

 

[scaramanga]

That is solvable. You have in, out with options under out. I think you would want to put no deal on as an option. And pray people are not stupid enough to vote for it.

Why not just have:

1. Leave
2. Remain and send our letter to the EU revoking Article 50 on white paper
3. Remain and send our letter to the EU revoking Article 50 on yellow paper
   
4. Remain and send our letter to the EU revoking Article 50 on blue paper
   
5. Remain and send our letter to the EU revoking Article 50 on green paper
   
6. Remain and send our letter to the EU revoking Article 50 on red paper