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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

SpurMeUp said:
Yesterday it was "traitor" MPs. It's all someone elses fault. No resonsibility on Brexit itself? It being an impossible taks to deliver value to UK people from this nonsense. Can you forever blame something, while missing the underlying issue/problem? Probably.
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You're missing the point entirely. Brexit has never been allowed to stand or fall on it's own merits. The playing field has been manipulated from the word go by people in the UK working against it. Had that never happened, we might actually know what was 'possible' and what isn't. But we'll never actually know any of that with the deck stacked the way is has been up to now.
 
Parklaner81 said:
You're missing the point entirely. Brexit has never been allowed to stand or fall on it's own merits. The playing field has been manipulated from the word go by people in the UK working against it. Had that never happened, we might actually know what was 'possible' and what isn't. But we'll never actually know any of that with the deck stacked the way is has been up to now.
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Yes. I know. The injustice!!

It's a bit like a football game. Poch never wants to rely on or emphasise the referee. If Brexit stood up on its own merits, it would have worked. No ifs or buts. This whole narrative of blame is really defering the problems onto someone else. Ultimately, you have to look at the detail of whether Brexit is/was viable, how it would have worked for you and the nation, and base your judgment on that. All the issues are a consequence of the practical difficulties of Brexit. If they did not exist Brexit would have been easy. Which is what Leave campaigners told us. Why keep the faith with people who got that so wrong? Are they going to be right on the rest of their predictions? Was their prediction re. the ease of brexit the exception?
 
scaramanga said:
Our constitution's fine, there are two short-term issues.

  1. A biased speaker. The whole system falls apart if the speaker won't stick to the rules. I've never seen that before, what Bercow has done is unprecedented and clearly outside the limits of what was assumed the level MPs would stoop to.
  2. An opposition too scared of an election. Parliament has a method by which to stop the government doing anything it likes. That's a vote of no confidence. Again, never before has the opposition been led by someone like Corbyn. The system doesn't work if the opposition doesn't want to lead
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Opps wasn't he a Tory?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
No idea who he is, but "excellent" isnt my first impression.

His counter arguments are just dismissives, and his linked to document is an EU produced doc detailing what they want/like in a relationship.

Not sure any of it is enlightening or conclusive, to be honest.
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Trust me this guy knows more than anyone on EU constitutional law. He is the guy the 'experts' call for advice. If you want to get into the weeds check out his lectures on YouTube. Yeah he is a remainer but he is itk on this stuff.

And he agrees with your opinion that a soft brexit is pointless.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yes. I know. The injustice!!

It's a bit like a football game. Poch never wants to rely on or emphasise the referee. If Brexit stood up on its own merits, it would have worked. No ifs or buts. This whole narrative of blame is really defering the problems onto someone else. Ultimately, you have to look at the detail of whether Brexit is/was viable, how it would have worked for you and the nation, and base your judgment on that. All the issues are a consequence of the practical difficulties of Brexit. If they did not exist Brexit would have been easy. Which is what Leave campaigners told us. Why keep the faith with people who got that so wrong? Are they going to be right on the rest of their predictions? Was their prediction re. the ease of brexit the exception?
Click to expand...

I guess it comes down to whether you view (some proportion of) the losers of a democratic exercise bitching and moaning and doing everything they can to sabotage the enaction of the result, as a valid reason for not doing something.

And I guess that'll be just another thing we disagree on.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yesterday it was "traitor" MPs. It's all someone elses fault. No resonsibility on Brexit itself? It being an impossible taks to deliver value to UK people from this nonsense. Can you forever blame something, while missing the underlying issue/problem? Probably.
Click to expand...
How can it be the fault of a concept? Concepts do not have agency. Blame can only be apportioned to people - one side was attempting to fulfil the will of the people, the other used every parliamentary loophole (and made some up) to do the precise opposite of what the people wanted. When offered the chance to ask the people again, they blocked again.
 
ha, ha,, re Brexit and Nayim and Scara flopping aound grasping at any lame excuse for Tory incompetence. it's all Labour's fault, it's all Corbyn's fault, now it's the speaker's fault apparently. I know who's fault it is... Boris' grubby hands are all over this mess form start to finish. Love his chutzpah though in attempting to shift responsibility to everyone else.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yes. I know. The injustice!!

It's a bit like a football game. Poch never wants to rely on or emphasise the referee. If Brexit stood up on its own merits, it would have worked. No ifs or buts. This whole narrative of blame is really defering the problems onto someone else. Ultimately, you have to look at the detail of whether Brexit is/was viable, how it would have worked for you and the nation, and base your judgment on that. All the issues are a consequence of the practical difficulties of Brexit. If they did not exist Brexit would have been easy. Which is what Leave campaigners told us. Why keep the faith with people who got that so wrong? Are they going to be right on the rest of their predictions? Was their prediction re. the ease of brexit the exception?
Click to expand...
Football is a good analogy. Getting Brexit through parliament is a bit like a match between two evenly matched teams, except one is Man U at Old Trafford, with Howard Webb in charge.
 
Parklaner81 said:
You're missing the point entirely. Brexit has never been allowed to stand or fall on it's own merits. The playing field has been manipulated from the word go by people in the UK working against it. Had that never happened, we might actually know what was 'possible' and what isn't. But we'll never actually know any of that with the deck stacked the way is has been up to now.
Click to expand...

I disagree, it fell on its own merits within hours of the result, Farage was on tv the very next morning admitting to the things they had lied about.
 
Rorschach said:
Trust me this guy knows more than anyone on EU constitutional law. He is the guy the 'experts' call for advice. If you want to get into the weeds check out his lectures on YouTube. Yeah he is a remainer but he is itk on this stuff.

And he agrees with your opinion that a soft brexit is pointless.
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I think my issue is more the presupposed things around what the EU will/will not do. Its already biased in their favour, so the conclusions naturally follow.

As Parklane said, theres never really been the opportunity to actually test that.



Gilzeantoscore said:
ha, ha,, re Brexit and Nayim and Scara flopping aound grasping at any lame excuse for Tory incompetence. it's all Labour's fault, it's all Corbyn's fault, now it's the speaker's fault apparently. I know who's fault it is... Boris' grubby hands are all over this mess form start to finish. Love his chutzpah though in attempting to shift responsibility to everyone else.
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Ive had issue with Bercow since he started to make himself part of the show, and have been consistent in such.

Ive had issue with Corbyn since it was obvious he was more interested in the premiership than the best interests, and did his level best to frustrate the whole process while not actually making any real opposition. What he has been up to recently is just shameful.

Ive had issue with Boris since before the referendum, it was clear then (and so it has proved) he didnt give two fudges about the consequences, he also just wanted that PM title.

There is no "shifting" responsibility. There is simply calling things as they are seen. Something you might be capable of understanding where you not so in the midst of the red mist.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
But would remain roll the dice and allow no deal as an option?

Although no deal and Norway deal (eg) would probably split the leave vote and remain would win.
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Lets get it sorted!

The ERG tried a ’smash a grab’ and got a bloody nose! Rightly so!

Now we must draw up a new comprehensive and workable list of vote options and move forward!

Yes personally, I'm remain but what is more important to me is fair vote and closure!
 
StephenH said:
Lets get it sorted!

The ERG tried a ’smash a grab’ and got a bloody nose! Rightly so!

Now we must draw up a new comprehensive and workable list of vote options and move forward!

Yes personally, I'm remain but what is more important to me is fair vote and closure!
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And when it goes to remain, is it ok for all/any leave believers to do absolutely anything - no matter how snakey - to push the result the other way?

Because thats where we are now after the first vote.

I do appreciate it was a poorly worded choice, but a choice was made, and ever since forces have been doing everything they can not to honour it.

If thats the way we play now, itll never end. Itll just get uglier and uglier.
 
StephenH said:
Lets get it sorted!

The ERG tried a ’smash a grab’ and got a bloody nose! Rightly so!

Now we must draw up a new comprehensive and workable list of vote options and move forward!

Yes personally, I'm remain but what is more important to me is fair vote and closure!
Click to expand...

do you think that will happen though, surely only one side can come out happy however any vote is structured?
 
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