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Toby Alderweireld

DeleHarry said:
Some bloke on tacoter, Ben Fairthorne, says Toby discussions now at an advanced stage, 50 mill plus add ons, Martial not part of any deal

Why sell to them of they don't want to include Martial. Just plain stupid
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Levy likes to drip feed these small details as the deal progresses, before halving what we'll pay when they've got the pen in their hand.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I’ve never been convinced Toby is 400% gone because it’s an incredibly complex situation. Sure, I think we’d accept a good offer and Toby would happily take 180k if he could get it, but I’ve not been convinced there are clubs they will so willingly pay what we would ask for to make it worth our while to sell him this summer, and pay him drastically more than he could get with us. Because of the clause next summer, we are incentivised to wait until then to sell him unless someone pays over the odds this year (no point selling for 35M when we can get 25M next year and another season out of him) and then Toby and his agent risk him spending another season on 50k a week. At which point, next summer, there really is no telling who is going to pay him notably more than the 130k he was supposedly offered. At which point, it’s not the worst move to stay with us and sign again.

I don’t think Poch ever ‘fell out’ with Toby in the same way as Walker. Toby’s agent is just doing his job to try and get him a bigger contract if he can. And if he’s doing that, Poch is going to play someone who is more committed for the long term. I don’t think there’s hard feelings, it’s just business. And if Toby said he wanted to stay here and accept what we offered, I’m sure Poch would have him.

The crux of it comes down to whether or not there is going to be a club that offers us enough money to make us sell up this summer vs next, and to offer him notably more money than we would offer in our new structure to make it worthwhile to make the move. His options are seemingly United or Juventus. I don’t see that Juve really pay enough in fees or wages for defenders. And United have the complication of being in our League - and I don’t think they pay defenders that well anyway.

I really would not be surprised if he stayed. Have said it all along. Unless we really need to sell him to fund our own business, I feel like there’s a good chance we keep him in.
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The rumour was though that a deal had been agreed between all parties. But then they came back a few days later and demanded parity with Van Dyke (£180k instead of £130k). It was breaking the gentleman's agreement that damaged him in Poch's eyes.
 
Gutter Boy said:
The rumour was though that a deal had been agreed between all parties. But then they came back a few days later and demanded parity with Van Dyke (£180k instead of £130k). It was breaking the gentleman's agreement that damaged him in Poch's eyes.
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I know, I’m just choosing not to believe that rumour. The amount of times Levy has renegotiated terms at the last minute (Aulas on the deal for Lloris being a key example) leads me to believe that they all understand that this is the business of football. And it’s important that agents are not seen as the players - they are separate and the agents do their best to get the right deals for their players.

I haven’t seen anything from a good source saying that Poch and Toby’s relationship was ‘damaged’ because of that. Obviously there have been lots that Toby is available because of his contract, and that he played Sanchez. But playing Sanchez is par for the course with Poch, making the best long term choice if he thinks Toby isn’t going to be sticking around. And I believe if the agent either A realised he shat the bed because VVD isn’t actually on 180 a week or B realised he wasn’t going to get 180k a week anywhere, then Poch would welcome him back. The caveat may be that he may not fancy having to replace both Jan and Toby in one summer, which he might have to do in 2 years say, so maybe he prefers to get the least committed one out now.

But I just don’t think it was personal in this instance. It’s not like Toby has said he wants to leave and his heart isn’t in it, his agent is just trying to get him the best deal. Toby’s within his rights to try to see what he can get, and that may end up being with us.

I can see Poch not totally liking the fact that players approaching 29/30 may not be here for the love of the project and will do it because they are paid well (and Jan hasn’t caused this problem despite having a banner year) but I think these are just the sort of big boy problems a club with a higher wage ceiling will now be dealing with. If we are competing against the Juve’s and the United’s of this world for talent, we need to accept that not all of those players will be here because they love the project as reason number 1. Poch’s ability to alter his style to take into account that new reality will be a big part of whether he can take us beyond where he has already gotten us to.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I know, I’m just choosing not to believe that rumour. The amount of times Levy has renegotiated terms at the last minute (Aulas on the deal for Lloris being a key example) leads me to believe that they all understand that this is the business of football. And it’s important that agents are not seen as the players - they are separate and the agents do their best to get the right deals for their players.

I haven’t seen anything from a good source saying that Poch and Toby’s relationship was ‘damaged’ because of that. Obviously there have been lots that Toby is available because of his contract, and that he played Sanchez. But playing Sanchez is par for the course with Poch, making the best long term choice if he thinks Toby isn’t going to be sticking around. And I believe if the agent either A realised he shat the bed because VVD isn’t actually on 180 a week or B realised he wasn’t going to get 180k a week anywhere, then Poch would welcome him back. The caveat may be that he may not fancy having to replace both Jan and Toby in one summer, which he might have to do in 2 years say, so maybe he prefers to get the least committed one out now.

But I just don’t think it was personal in this instance. It’s not like Toby has said he wants to leave and his heart isn’t in it, his agent is just trying to get him the best deal. Toby’s within his rights to try to see what he can get, and that may end up being with us.

I can see Poch not totally liking the fact that players approaching 29/30 may not be here for the love of the project and will do it because they are paid well (and Jan hasn’t caused this problem despite having a banner year) but I think these are just the sort of big boy problems a club with a higher wage ceiling will now be dealing with. If we are competing against the Juve’s and the United’s of this world for talent, we need to accept that not all of those players will be here because they love the project as reason number 1. Poch’s ability to alter his style to take into account that new reality will be a big part of whether he can take us beyond where he has already gotten us to.
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Great post.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I know, I’m just choosing not to believe that rumour. The amount of times Levy has renegotiated terms at the last minute (Aulas on the deal for Lloris being a key example) leads me to believe that they all understand that this is the business of football. And it’s important that agents are not seen as the players - they are separate and the agents do their best to get the right deals for their players.

I haven’t seen anything from a good source saying that Poch and Toby’s relationship was ‘damaged’ because of that. Obviously there have been lots that Toby is available because of his contract, and that he played Sanchez. But playing Sanchez is par for the course with Poch, making the best long term choice if he thinks Toby isn’t going to be sticking around. And I believe if the agent either A realised he shat the bed because VVD isn’t actually on 180 a week or B realised he wasn’t going to get 180k a week anywhere, then Poch would welcome him back. The caveat may be that he may not fancy having to replace both Jan and Toby in one summer, which he might have to do in 2 years say, so maybe he prefers to get the least committed one out now.

But I just don’t think it was personal in this instance. It’s not like Toby has said he wants to leave and his heart isn’t in it, his agent is just trying to get him the best deal. Toby’s within his rights to try to see what he can get, and that may end up being with us.

I can see Poch not totally liking the fact that players approaching 29/30 may not be here for the love of the project and will do it because they are paid well (and Jan hasn’t caused this problem despite having a banner year) but I think these are just the sort of big boy problems a club with a higher wage ceiling will now be dealing with. If we are competing against the Juve’s and the United’s of this world for talent, we need to accept that not all of those players will be here because they love the project as reason number 1. Poch’s ability to alter his style to take into account that new reality will be a big part of whether he can take us beyond where he has already gotten us to.
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It is one thing to make a move and sign a top talent who might well be as much about pocket as project. It is another to see someone who was part of your project, who you built a relationship with and trusted, who you felt you made a super-fair offer to which was accepted, turn around and then pull a fast one. If it is true -and I for one think it is- then trust has been broken. I want to move on, I want him sold, I want Poch to get De Ligt or whoever and I want us to stop pouring energy into Toby. We spent most of the season without him and finished third. We will be fine. FWIW I believe we will see Jan get a bump on his deal for sure.
 
thfcsteff said:
It is one thing to make a move and sign a top talent who might well be as much about pocket as project. It is another to see someone who was part of your project, who you built a relationship with and trusted, who you felt you made a super-fair offer to which was accepted, turn around and then pull a fast one. If it is true -and I for one think it is- then trust has been broken. I want to move on, I want him sold, I want Poch to get De Ligt or whoever and I want us to stop pouring energy into Toby. We spent most of the season without him and finished third. We will be fine. FWIW I believe we will see Jan get a bump on his deal for sure.
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I agree with you, I think we will definitely be fine without him. I’m just not sure I’m on board with this whole idea that ‘trust is broken’ because Toby’s agent tried to get more. His agent would justifiably that the realities of the market have changed (As Levy did with Aulas) and Toby has one more big contract in him.

We’re now playing at something approaching the top table, and I’m not convinced we can afford to be precious if we do get a player that turns world class in his late 20s decide he is worth what the top players in his position are getting. Toby’s been nothing less than professional it seems on the training ground and on the pitch, and he never actually signed the contract that was offered.

Maybe going forward, we won’t have this situation, because any player that gets to word class level at 29 probably would have been paid more than 50k a week before they get there, even with us. So players can both be passionate about the project and feel like they are getting what they deserve. But Toby has done 3 years on 50k a week. I don’t blame him for thinking now is the summer to make some final big money at the tail end of his career.

I’d see Poch’s argument if indeed it is his argument, but I also see Toby’s. And ultimately I would say a bit of pragmatism is required here. If we aren’t keen to sell him to fund other business, and he’s willing to sign for 130k, we should take it. He’s a hard working, top performing player that suits our system and suits the personality of the squad. When we’re playing at the top table we’re going to have to accept money is a factor too and not everyone is going to make their decisions on the right long term play, not when it’s the last big contract they can sign. Poch can have his principles as a Manager because he might have a 20 year career and many opportunities. Toby’s got 3/4 years left at the real top level and has spent the last 3 getting paid less than he is worth. Not sure I blame him and I don’t think we can be precious about it at the level we’re at now.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I agree with you, I think we will definitely be fine without him. I’m just not sure I’m on board with this whole idea that ‘trust is broken’ because Toby’s agent tried to get more. His agent would justifiably that the realities of the market have changed (As Levy did with Aulas) and Toby has one more big contract in him.

We’re now playing at something approaching the top table, and I’m not convinced we can afford to be precious if we do get a player that turns world class in his late 20s decide he is worth what the top players in his position are getting. Toby’s been nothing less than professional it seems on the training ground and on the pitch, and he never actually signed the contract that was offered.

Maybe going forward, we won’t have this situation, because any player that gets to word class level at 29 probably would have been paid more than 50k a week before they get there, even with us. So players can both be passionate about the project and feel like they are getting what they deserve. But Toby has done 3 years on 50k a week. I don’t blame him for thinking now is the summer to make some final big money at the tail end of his career.

I’d see Poch’s argument if indeed it is his argument, but I also see Toby’s. And ultimately I would say a bit of pragmatism is required here. If we aren’t keen to sell him to fund other business, and he’s willing to sign for 130k, we should take it. He’s a hard working, top performing player that suits our system and suits the personality of the squad. When we’re playing at the top table we’re going to have to accept money is a factor too and not everyone is going to make their decisions on the right long term play, not when it’s the last big contract they can sign. Poch can have his principles as a Manager because he might have a 20 year career and many opportunities. Toby’s got 3/4 years left at the real top level and has spent the last 3 getting paid less than he is worth. Not sure I blame him and I don’t think we can be precious about it at the level we’re at now.
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I think Toby was foolish and greedy...well, his representatives. Van Dijk is how much younger? How much fitter? Like Rose before him, Toby failed to see how good it was. 130k a week? With his injury record over the last two years? Poch is not being precious, he is apparently sticking to what he has always relied upon -decency and trust. I think it would be unsound business to bow to him.


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thfcsteff said:
I think Toby was foolish and greedy...well, his representatives. Van Dijk is how much younger? How much fitter? Like Rose before him, Toby failed to see how good it was. 130k a week? With his injury record over the last two years? Poch is not being precious, he is apparently sticking to what he has always relied upon -decency and trust. I think it would be unsound business to bow to him.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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On the other hand, Toby has played the last 3 years getting paid below market rate. He’s looking to equalise and I don’t blame him.

When you’re playing at the top table, this is what happens. Players make moves to get paid more. Look at Ronaldo every year with Madrid. Look at Lewandowski with Bayern now. I remember Rio at United making a similar move to get a bigger contract. It happens and this is the world we are now dealing in, the clubs we are now competing with. And the thing is, Toby is not merely asking for more, he’s got one big contract left and has played the last 3 years well below his worth.

I think this trust and decency thing is getting over played here. He’s not exactly done a Fabian Delph, signing a contract and then looking to move on. His agent has tried to get him the biggest deal possible. It’s business at the top table.
 
DeleHarry said:
Some bloke on tacoter, Ben Fairthorne, says Toby discussions now at an advanced stage, 50 mill plus add ons, Martial not part of any deal

Why sell to them of they don't want to include Martial. Just plain stupid
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Because maybe we don’t want Martial?
 
DeleHarry said:
Well that would be worrying.
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Lucas, Son, Dele and Lamela can play similar areas.

We always only see a small part of these 'rumoured' transfers.
Maybe he is not a fit emotionally/temperament wise for Pochettino?
Maybe he does not want to come to us?

So little is known.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
On the other hand, Toby has played the last 3 years getting paid below market rate. He’s looking to equalise and I don’t blame him.

When you’re playing at the top table, this is what happens. Players make moves to get paid more. Look at Ronaldo every year with Madrid. Look at Lewandowski with Bayern now. I remember Rio at United making a similar move to get a bigger contract. It happens and this is the world we are now dealing in, the clubs we are now competing with. And the thing is, Toby is not merely asking for more, he’s got one big contract left and has played the last 3 years well below his worth.

I think this trust and decency thing is getting over played here. He’s not exactly done a Fabian Delph, signing a contract and then looking to move on. His agent has tried to get him the biggest deal possible. It’s business at the top table.
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It does seem like every major contract renewal negotiations these days involves the agent telling the papers who wants to sign his player, and the club telling the papers who they are looking to sign in his position.
 
You can see why we’d let Toby go. We sell one player a year. The difference is now, we’re not selling our best players. With Poch and CL we have so far retained the likes or Eriksen, Kane and Alli. While Toby is up there with them, at 29 it fits our model to cash in on him now. But any less than 50m we should retain his services and sell abroad for 25m next summer. While Sanchez will be a
Very good CB, Toby has experience, an impressive mental determination and great technical skill. How many perfect diagonal balls did he play in the final game? Less than 50m Levy should keep him.


50m while paying for the new stadium is a decent wedge.




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SpurMeUp said:
You can see why we’d let Toby go. We sell one player a year. The difference is now, we’re not selling our best players. With Poch and CL we have so far retained the likes or Eriksen, Kane and Alli. While Toby is up there with them, at 29 it fits our model to cash in on him now. But any less than 50m we should retain his services and sell abroad for 25m next summer. While Sanchez will be a
Very good CB, Toby has experience, an impressive mental determination and great technical skill. How many perfect diagonal balls did he play in the final game? Less than 50m Levy should keep him.


50m while paying for the new stadium is a decent wedge.




Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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Next year we won't have a choice where he goes and i wonder if the same people saying we should hold on to him regardless would be singing a different tune if he leaves for Chelsea or Arsenal in a cut price deal
 
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