Toby Alderweireld

[BrainOfLevy]

I'm aboard the Mawson train if Toby does go. Left footed, comfortable on the ball, would provide nice balance and slot into the squad nicely.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think it was in the cup games that we missed Toby most. All 3 cup competitions we gave up a winning position to let our opponents back in.

We lost our defensive solidity last season, something Poch needs to get back. Wanyama, Walker and Wembley no doubt contributed, but would we have crashed out from a winning position in the cups with Toby organising and helping to give us some cool? I do think Poch needs to look at the high press in cups when we’re winning. Left the back line exposed when teams throw caution to the wind.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Rorschach]

If we were willing to part with 130k a week for him that tells me all I need to know. Simply put he was a critical cog in our best defensive line up and Poch thought as much too. The fact Toby values himself a little higher is neither here nor there. I do hope we manage to convince him to sign on the dotted line again.
He can sign for Juve in a few years. They like oldies.

 

[Bullet]

sticking with just 2 CBs ...the restrictions it puts on the full backs.
I've always thought Walker (now Tripps) and Rose looked far more threatening when the shackles were off to really bomb forward, knowing we had 3 CBs plus either Dier or Big Vic to cover them.

I know what you mean, but don't forget we often played 2 CB's with Dier dropping in to make it a 3 as the full backs (Rose and Walker) pushed on.
Which is essentially the same as starting with 3 centre backs in terms of personnel, it is just about tweaking roles slightly.

Also we can always adapt to new formations, it took Poch a while to find his different systems, at first we always played one way.
Note that Guardiola employed a system wherein the full backs tucked into midfield, allowing the midfield to push further forwards - I like this idea i.e. instead of expecting a fullback to cover the full 100 yards up and down, the full back tucks up into midfield and the midfield tucks up into the front positions. Seems more efficient.

Also we are quite keen to get Eriksen involved in deeper positions, so we might play any number of odd systems to enable it.
I noticed Southgate playing some strange 21212121212121212121 system against Nigeria.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm not saying all top table biz revolves reneging on a deal, but I am saying we are now going to be dealing with players looking at the top tier of clubs, seeing what they are paying, and having a choice about whether to compete. And there will come a point in some of these evaluations where purely signing players because they believe in the project isn't going to be the deciding factor for them anymore. If Poch would happily keep Toby but looks upon the fact that he's got one last chance to get a big contract and is trying to get one as some kind of black mark, then I'm not sure I'd agree with the approach. He didn't sign anything - and maybe you know something to the extent to which terms were 'agreed', but for me it's fair that he sees if he can get a better deal elsewhere. Players at the top of their game will decide they should get paid as much as they can, and will look at their peers to decide whether they think it is fair. Players at 29+ will decide they need to get as much money as they can before they retire, if they feel they have developed into top class and no longer necessarily need to take less money at a project club because they get more first 11 football.

I think there have been way snakier things happen in football than Toby not singing a contract with us. And these are really the kind of problems we will face as we move to big club territory. For some reason Jan has not kicked up a fuss about a new deal despite having an awesome year, but I don't think every player will be like Jan. Does that mean we should discard Toby, or whoever the next is after Toby to want a bigger deal? Once we start having more 29 year olds who can justifiably claim they could play for most teams in the world and who have one big contract left, do we discard them all once they get to that point? The realities of our club will change. Young players are happy to take the financial hit in their early to mid 20s because they get first 11 football and the opportunity to develop. 29 year olds...not so much. I don't think we can discard one for doing the quite reasonable thing to see if they can get one final big contract, particularly since they spent the last 3 years reportedly on 50k, way below what they could have earned elsewhere. Particularly if we want to win trophies - if we keep wanting to play every year with young players because they listen, are committed and we give them an opportunity to get the mistakes out of their system then we might never get beyond where we are at. I look upon the new stadium as our opportunity to retain some key experience in the squad. Not that we should go after purely 29+ players, but let's say 1 in each position (meaning defence, midfield, attack) wouldn't go a miss.

We are destined to disagree on this subject (a rare moment my friend!) but I do not believe Poch is looking upon Toby wanting to get as fat a contract as possible as a "black mark"...what I think has counted heavily against him are -
1) he went through a series of negotiations via his reps
2) these took a considerable amount of time and also encompassed a second major injury phase of his career
3) an agreement was reached between the parties
4) after this agreement was reached, said-parties moved the goalposts.

I believe Poch would rather TA had said he would like to wait until the end of the season and see what was out there than agree something only to turn around and renegotiate based on other actions in the football world.

Bottom-line is we do not have the money to be paying a CB who spends half a season unfit/off the pitch 180 or whatever K a week. IF you pay maximum money to your 29yer olds, then they at the very least have to be/have a decent fitness record. I believe that is a fair thing to factor in.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

We are destined to disagree on this subject (a rare moment my friend!) but I do not believe Poch is looking upon Toby wanting to get as fat a contract as possible as a "black mark"...what I think has counted heavily against him are -
1) he went through a series of negotiations via his reps
2) these took a considerable amount of time and also encompassed a second major injury phase of his career
3) an agreement was reached between the parties
4) after this agreement was reached, said-parties moved the goalposts.

I believe Poch would rather TA had said he would like to wait until the end of the season and see what was out there than agree something only to turn around and renegotiate based on other actions in the football world.

Bottom-line is we do not have the money to be paying a CB who spends half a season unfit/off the pitch 180 or whatever K a week. IF you pay maximum money to your 29yer olds, then they at the very least have to be/have a decent fitness record. I believe that is a fair thing to factor in.

Don't disagree with anything you've said there. He isn't worth 180k for me even if we were moving up the structure to the point where Kane is on 200k. Although, I can see while the injury may have played a part in lowering our offer, it's probably also motivating Toby to see if he can get the biggest offer possible on his basic, because he's been underselling himself on a 50k a week base for the last 3 years.

So I can see both sides. As you say, what would have been best for all concerned is if Toby said he didn't want to negotiate until the end of the season. But even then, maybe that wouldn't have worked for us, as we probably were trying to lock him down before the clause became a bigger deal. So maybe we forced the issue, maybe Toby felt happy, and then maybe other things happened and they changed things up.

I don't blame him and I don't blame us, I just hope that if the opportunity is still there to sign on the terms agreed in Jan/Feb, if indeed they were, that we can put all the other business behind us and move on with it. But as you can see, I think we will be fine as a club if we let him go too.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I'm aboard the Mawson train if Toby does go. Left footed, comfortable on the ball, would provide nice balance and slot into the squad nicely.

Distinctly underwhelmed every time Ive seen him, yet to work out why people rate him.

Steff I don't subscribe to the we finished 3rd without him so we will not miss him argument. The season before when he played consistently alongside Verts and Walker we finished second with 9 more points. There is an argument that we not as good without him and Walker last season.

I agree if he's reneged on a handshake then that is not good as no one one is bigger than the club. However, in his mind his stock may at its highest and most people would look to get the best deal possible for themselves and why not? In business, negotiations should not be conducted in a personal. fashion. I expect Poch and Levy see it that way too. That is probably not the reason he is not getting game time and I am sure they would be happy for him to sign the contract now.

Losing Toby represents another major player leaving the club. It often feels like we take one step forward and 2 back. It's harder to take when we are so close to winning trophies.

Of course we have survived the loss of major players before, bigger ones than Toby, but there is no doubt it puts us back a little every time we lose them. I understand this is the reality of where we are as a club but imo it has affected our ability to win major trophies, a stick non spurs fans beat us with.

So I think his loss will hit us harder in the short term unless he is suitably replaced and not with another inexperienced defender.

I think our [relative] defensive frailty was almost entirely down to Dembele/Wanyama being missing, rather than Alderweireld.

The mistakes people are so keen to lay on Sanchez are almost always down to a lack of midfield cover.

Dembele/Wanyama were beastly last season, incredibly hard to break down and protected our defence brilliantly.

Dier/Sissoko/Winks just isnt the same and never was going to be. Considering this, I think had Alderweireld played instead of Sanchez little would have changed. His added experience probably negated by Sanchez superior pace.

Im not saying we wont miss Alderweireld, he is of course a quality player whom Id much rather keep, but on the scale of how bad loses might be - there are MANY above him IMHO. Sanchez compensated for him admirably, effectively replacing him.

 

[FatBloke]

Two games in the league where imo we missed Toby's experience were City home and away, defensively, especially on the right side we were a shambles. Away from the League vs Juventus in the second game defensive errors cost us. For their second goal the Juve player walked through the right side of our midfield and defence completely unchallenged. Against Utd in the Cup, again defensive errors cost us. Imho we missed Toby's ability see danger and snuff it out before it became a problem whereas with Sanchez I had the feeling he was more reactive and could do with learning from Toby. We missed his ability to organise the defence and his calm assurance which transmits to his fellow defenders.

Offensively we also missed his threat from set pieces in the opposition half and his long progressive passes from the back.

Don't get me wrong I think Sanchez is an excellent defender but I don't think he is quite at the level of Toby yet.

Additionally the three of Toby Sanchez and Verts at the back for the big games is imo a world class combination.

I cannot agree more. A fit Toby for the Juve or ManU cup matches could have been the difference we needed. There's no way of telling for sure, of course, but experience in the big matches is the one thing that Sanchez doesn't quite have. Yet.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Horses mouth:

'I have another two years contract, so Tottenham decide about my future. Of course I have my own idea, but that is not the case now.

'The past season was tough, but I'm glad that I could play the last four matches. That means that I am ready for the World Cup.'

 

[Rorschach]

2 year?

 

[Jordinho]

2 year?

1+1

We can extend it next summer, but that activates a release clause of 25 million.

 

[StephenH]

2 year?

My thoughts exactly!

 

[StephenH]

1+1

We can extend it next summer, but that activates a release clause of 25 million.

I keep getting this wrong

 

[Raziel]

Horses mouth:

'I have another two years contract, so Tottenham decide about my future. Of course I have my own idea, but that is not the case now.

'The past season was tough, but I'm glad that I could play the last four matches. That means that I am ready for the World Cup.'

Clearly if we were feeling spiteful against him, we could have completely frozen him out.

It's a weird one, I think we either get a really good offer for him and move him on, or he renews late in summer and stays (while his price will be good next summer, he'll also be at that 30 number, not sure how many "bigger" clubs will still be interested in putting out big wages on a long contract at that point).

 

[DeleHarry]

Apparently Utd are very interested in centre back Lenglet at Sevilla. 31 mill release clause

How many central defenders does the miserable one want. Jones, Smalling, Bailey, Lindoff, Rojo, now maybe Lenglet......

 

[Rorschach]

Apparently Utd are very interested in centre back Lenglet at Sevilla. 31 mill release clause

How many central defenders does the miserable one want. Jones, Smalling, Bailey, Lindoff, Rojo, now maybe Lenglet......

If it helps Spurs keep Alderweireld then the more the merrier

 

[Kandi1977]

Don't disagree with anything you've said there. He isn't worth 180k for me even if we were moving up the structure to the point where Kane is on 200k. Although, I can see while the injury may have played a part in lowering our offer, it's probably also motivating Toby to see if he can get the biggest offer possible on his basic, because he's been underselling himself on a 50k a week base for the last 3 years.

Why did he sign the contract if he believed he was worth much much more? I don't take a job that doesn't pay what I want, and I'm not even in a position to just pick and choose, as he was.

 

[Raziel]

Why did he sign the contract if he believed he was worth much much more? I don't take a job that doesn't pay what I want, and I'm not even in a position to just pick and choose, as he was.

#1 - There wasn't a better offer on the table

other reasons

- $50K isn't starving money and with bonuses he probably earned more
- Good team dynamic (Jan), good coach he worked with before, London, no drama, club going places (generally seems like a nice place to play football)
- He was younger

Here is the reality (many have said it before)

- Toby is close to the 30 number now, for professional athlete's it brings a realization that he can see the end of his career not too far away
- Recently defenders have been going for much more money than in past (VVD, Walker) and getting bigger wages
- He may still want a swansong trophy or two before retiring.

He's got the option/right to look around, just as the club can chose to keep him or offload him.

Said it before, if we get a really good offer and he gets his double/triple wages and a shot at some trophy, he's off.

However for some reason, Toby has never been a big target for significantly bigger clubs than us, so the suitors are few, if it falls through (United seem to be looking at other options), could see him staying.

So far, both sides have been professional publicly about it, so no issue either way.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Why did he sign the contract if he believed he was worth much much more? I don't take a job that doesn't pay what I want, and I'm not even in a position to just pick and choose, as he was.

I'm sure 50 was fine at the time, along with the opportunity to play first 11 football in a team challenging at the top end of the table and playing in a style that would suit him. And at that point, he wouldn't mind so much that he'd see his peers like Lovren earning 100k for example. But now, he's 29, he doesn't need to prove himself, he needs one last big contract. I don't blame him for trying to get it.

As Raziel says, there's a good chance he stays this summer. It's a bit of poker between Levy and his agent right now. I think Levy has correctly deduced that not many teams will pay him much above what he can get with us, and so the best move for all concerned may be that he eventually signs up, and removes the clause in the process.

 

[Kandi1977]

So suddenly that equates to 4 times more than what he was more than happy to sign up for just a couple of years ago. Logic...