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"Champions of 3rd place, we know what we are"
- Thread starter 90291Spur
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I'm not revelling in any negativity, just choose to see things in a broader sense hence why I said its still a very good achievement as opposed to the general default mode I notice of just accepting what is put in front of them and suggesting it doesn't matter now because we got top 4 anyway.
That's fair enough, I would disagree and feel our performances rather than the points actually accrued have been of a stumbling nature rather than finishing with a flourish but that's just purely how I see it.
Robspur12
John Lacy
In past seasons when we’ve stumbled we have failed consistently to “get over the line.” We were perennially the “nearly but not quite” team. This is the difference that Poch has made. Ironically the accusation levelled at Poch is that he cannot get us over the line in big games. When he does, such as yesterday, the criticism becomes well he almost let it slip and we shouldn’t have been in that position in the first place. It’s like we have to have a stick to beat him and the team with rather than celebrate the moment.
Chelsea are not bottlers? They were Champions last year and are likely to finish 5th this season, they have lost 4 home games this season at the Bridge including against us whilst we have lost only 2 at Wembley. Few would have seen them finishing outside the top 4 and certainly not behind us. Throughout the season I expected them to put a run together and catch us. They haven’t; a team that consists of Willian, Hazard, Kante, Fabregas coached by one of the most successful managers in Italian football. It’s been quite a feat of bottling imo. Whereas we were labelled bottlers just for not winning the league ahead of Leicester and Chelsea when we were never top and were playing more games.
Every team bar City has had a blip this season . We spent the middle of the season garnering more points than practically every one of our rivals. We paid for it by April - we look exhausted. Poch has to look at that for sure. But it should not detract that it has been a wonderful season in many ways. Beating Madrid, Dortmund, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd at Wembley and Chelsea at the bridge - in style.
I agree with your previous post about Toby. It is a huge shame how the Alderweireld situation has turned out. We have really missed him in the big games imo. I wish we could find a way to keep him. But who knows what has happened behind the scenes. Surely though Levy and Poch have earned our trust on this one as irritating as it is.
To say Poch and the team didn’t care about winning the FA cup is complete nonsense imo and ignores their reaction after the loss. I will say it again his comments were designed to take the pressure off the team. I have seen nothing since to change my view.
I am unashamedly a fan of Poch does that make me a “happy clapper?” maybe. On the other hand I think I have a healthy sense of realism of the strengths and weaknesses of this team I was hugely disappointed by the loss to Utd in the Semi. We have had a very good season and I think it is poor to try and define it by our stumbling over the last few games.
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In reference to Pochettino and the fact he doesn't get it done in the big games......well in win or bust games he hasn't, that is fact. Fiorentina and Sheffield United are notable exceptions but I wouldn't label that at him uniquely, the players have to accept a large amount of criticism because it is across different squads this has happened and different managers. We've lost 2 FA Cup semi finals, a League cup final, 2 last 32 Europa league ties and 1 round of 16 tie and 1 round of 16 CL tie so he has won one knockout tie in Europe and one knockout tie beyond the quarter finals in domestic cups. Winning the league games and group games was and is fantastic but he has got to start winning the games where you don't get another chance other the results suggest he just can't do it
Chelsea have had a poor season, a very poor season but bottling is not the correct description. In order to bottle, you must have it within your grasp or within your gift to achieve. For them being out of the top 4 since February they haven't bottled it, that doesn't make any sense at all. They have done what they are renowned for which is having a season off due to issues with the manager and have massively under achieved but they could still win a trophy despite underachieving. I also don't subscribe to the view we bottled either of our title races, we were never in front in either race or at any point, top of the league. In 2016/17 we won 12 of our last 13 so I was never going to be taking notice of the gonad*s being spouted about bottling, that's title winning form.
Pochettino may well have been saying that to take pressure off but that was not the way to do it and it sent the wrong message externally and a likely confused message internally. I just don't understand how anyone can have been blasé and comfortable with those comments and just swallow the fact it is to take the pressure off as if by magic. He could have used other methods to dampen the media frenzy but he added to it. That was a major mistake and he needs to learn from it.
Being a fan of Pochettino isn't a problem, it only becomes a problem if you are then blind to any faults because you love the man. I like him and he has been a superb manager for us and done extremely well when he hasn't been supported as well as he could have been but the same can be said for other managers prior to him too on that front. That doesn't mean he is beyond criticism and beyond question and it also doesn't mean that those who do question are less supportive, its about balance. I am not a sheep and won't think like one so just because he has done quite well relatively speaking, I want more from him. I want better substitutions, I don't want him waiting to the 70th min every time even when it is clearly not working, I don't want favourites and marginalised players based on outside factors, I want the best players playing for my club where possible and at times I don't think that has happened this season. I want him to desire trophies like the fans do and crave those moments, I don't want to hear public denouncing of certain trophies even if it is an unintended consequence of what he is saying.
As for me defining it by saying we crawled over the line, I think I have made myself quite clear that overall it has been a very good season given our circumstances but with a pretty poor finish that could've cost us but fortunately it didn't. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. If you define it as purely a wonderful season with all peaks and little troughs then that is your right. I will disagree with you and I think I have made it clear enough why I would and I think the actual happenings support that.
I don't really see the point in dwelling on the games we have lost - we haven't won anything yet of course, that doesn't even need stating, does it? but we have a good team with some fantastic players so hopefully we continue to improve and win in the future - beyond reiterating that we have a poor record when it comes to knockout competitions i don't exactly see what your point is, that we have to do better? Well yeah everyone would agree with that
I don't think everybody would agree with that, I think some will accept whatever is thrown up in front of them and use the lack of finances etc as some crown to wear. If you don't strive for better and just say oh well then how do you expect to get any better? Its that sort of mentality we need rid of if we want to actually compete at the very top otherwise we are just taking part really
Robspur12
John Lacy
Most of your post has been argued to death so I am not going to rehash old circular arguments here. But this paragraph is the height of arrogance. There is absolutely no evidence that his comments were detrimental to our chances in any of the competitions. In fact judging by Alli’s Post match interview following the United game and Poch's comments about the semi disappointment after the Watford game suggests to me he was building up the cup games quite differently in the changing room to what was being said in the media. Poch needs to do what ever he thinks is best to make his team win games and not worry about the sensitivities of supporters or outside influences. The media always want a story, how they portray him is not his primary concern. That he has reached 2 semi finals and a final of competitions “he doesn’t value,”in his 4 seasons at Spurs shows he is doing many things right.
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I think you're wrong to think people don't generally agree that we need to be better, progression is what everyone wants to see from the team afterall and id be genuinely surprised if you found anyone that didn't want to see that from Spurs, let alone a big section of the fanbase or majority. The difference is not everyone needs to dwell on the competitions we haven't won, they're in the past we can't win them now...
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BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Not to mention we are back to moving the goalposts of what 'must win' games should look like to suit the argument that Poch doesn't do well in them. Like winning away at Chelsea when a win for them would have really had them breathing down our necks, but ultimately getting the 3 points and putting us well on course for the CL again...it was undeniably a crunch game. And we won. There are also many crunch games over the season against the likes of Arsenal, Man United, Liverpool earlier on where we have won crucial points in big games.
Yeah, we need to improve in the Cups but losing to Juve and a United team that have beaten City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and us already this season was not the disgrace it had been made out to be. It was presented as our big chance and all we needed to do was just win the game, against the team that would finish 2nd, when in reality it was always going to be tight.
And the other thing that bugs me is this idea of losing a lead in the game should be tantamount to 'bottling'. The game is 90 minutes. Scoring first does not mean we are going to win. And against another good team, they may well score against us, and will obviously have even more incentive to do so. It's not the proof of some deep rooted problem.
As for the fact that Poch didn't care about the Cup and transmitted that message, you only need to watch his and Dele's interviews after the game to see that it is pure nonsense.
We obviously all want to improve and win, and we probably will if we keep progressing at the rate that we are. But to achieve what we have this season is awesome, it really is. To be in the position to finish 3rd, even if we are 'stumbling' slightly, just means we must have been absolutely incredible at periods in the season to build up enough steam to be here. And we are. Recognise it!
What makes it the height of arrogance? Because it doesn't suit your opinion or narrative? It is my perception of it and I think he should avoid saying something along those lines and use a different angle in the future. You obviously don't.
I think in fairness the draws have been very kind in all those runs, the games when we lost in the FA Cup certainly we did so against our first 'comparative' opponent.
Fair enough, that's an interesting perspective. Taking that view might make us a bit more relaxed in the future before big games and if we fall short there is always another game, another season.......
Robspur12
John Lacy
Nothing to do with my “opinion”or my “narrative” and everything to do with your posting style which appears to portray everything you state to be the unequivocal truth.
I'm not moving a goalpost over what games are must win. My feeling is we don't win games or ties that are win or die, win or your knocked out. That might be just how I see it but even before Pochettino, we just seem to fall at the first difficult hurdle we come up against which sometimes see us at the Semi final point with regards the FA Cup but in Europe sees us go out before the quarters which is frustrating. The league is a different thing, Chelsea away wasn't must win, it was don't lose but you always have another game so to speak to put it right if it goes wrong, obviously you aren't afforded that luxury in knockout games so the pressure is higher.
I wouldn't knock the Juventus defeat disappointing though it was, it was a 10 minute mad spell where we just lost our shape and balance, Kane's header goes in and its Extra time against an ageing team who thought they were through. Man Utd was a strange one because it was like a malaise, as soon as Utd equalised we were deflated which made no sense as its 1-1 with over an hour to play. I thought get to half time and he will sort it and we will be competitive, I thought we were without idea in the second half, resorting to attempting to engineer shots from 30 yards from Eriksen or Kane, it was painful to watch although Man Utd's defensive shape was superb and they cut off all the angles for balls between the CB and FB.
Your right, losing a lead in a game isn't bottling. Anyone can be 1-0 up and get beat, its one goal. Being 4-0 up and drawing 4-4 is bottling it because it shouldn't happen so losing the Semi isn't what I would call bottling and is not the impression I wanted to convey. As for Poch, I'm not saying he doesn't care about the cups specifically but I don't think comments like it won't change our life but the PL and CL are helpful even if he is trying to relieve pressure, that's my only point on it, I think he could look for other ways publically rather than saying that but that is personal choice, other people seem unbothered.
Undoubtedly we have done well this season, no question at all but I can't think the manager doesn't feel the end has been a bit of a flat line by comparison to the rest, I would hope he does think it hasn't been quite good enough over the last 5 weeks and would like to avoid a repeat next season if we are in the same position.
I haven't claimed it to be unequivocal truth, I did say it was my opinion, obviously I can't tangibly demonstrate it had an effect nor can you demonstrate it didn't but I would say that it would be fair to assume if we both have differing ideas on it then its quite possible players in the dressing room might also have polar view points?
In terms of my posting style, I would say that you seem to be irritated that we have a difference of opinion on what was said by the manager relating to the FA Cup not being a life changer if we won it. Not really sure why, you think it was fine and that it was purely to dampen the media frenzy and I accept it was likely to be that as opposed to outright not being bothered about winning it but felt he could've done it in a different way.
I believe what I say to be correct, that's why I thought it and said it, just like you think what you say is correct because that's what you think otherwise you wouldn't say it......that is what a discussion is about, you won't always agree with everything you read on here.
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
The stumble to 3rd.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
First off, the same cannot be said for other managers prior to him on that front at all. Unless you are going to go there with "him". He did it once, and I loved that day out at Eastlands, loved it. But it was once. Not three times in four seasons.
The old "I am not a sheep" line again. Good for you mate. Neither am I. Thus I won't be agreeing with your arguments' chiefly because your main definitions lack consistent context. Let me ask you this; had we still needed 3 points from Sunday to get CL football, and let's future-trip and say we got them, would that (by definition) make it a "must-win" game that Poch won? Why does Wednesday mean any less? Why did Chelski away (a huge match) mean any less?
The subs thing is a personal choice. I look at the bench and see his chief issue as being that he doesn't have many options. He switched the entire shape and thrust of the team against Newcash at HT, effectively going to a "tipless diamond" 4-3-3 shape and we were much better second-half.He changes shape numerous times throughout a match on lots of occasions. Has he got some subs wrong? Absolutely. Is he serial offender? Absolutely not IMO. As for the thinly-veiled reference to Alderwiereld, again, the numbers support his decision to stick with Davo.
Here's the thing. Opinions all require context...mine, yours, whoever, right? We'd agree on that I trust?
What I have found particularly galling (and ball-less of some of our supporters the past few weeks) is the lack of root courage, conviction, context and belief. With what Poch has done for this club in four years, it actually flabbergasted me. Some idiots on the internet were actually asking "who would replace him", then we saw the Ranieri pathos, and slowly, surely, we saw his situation pot-boiled by some out there in internet-land (thankfully not this forum) into a "2 games to save himself" job.
The man should never EVER have been judged before May 13th, and that fact remains solid. And when we do come to "judging" him, it will be interesting to see how many people offer context, admit their knees were jerking or stoically try to defend their pessimism.
In the spirit of discussion and with no personal agenda or intended slights...
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Ugh, the subs thing again. So tiresome, so boring, so wrong.