Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
Yep tickle my balls with a feather
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Jose Mourinho - SACKED
- Thread starter mjc23
- Start date
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
On points 1 and 2. Ultimately instead of having someone at the club in charge of transfers we had Levy and Poch doing bits of it on a part time basis. Compare this with the stories you hear of Liverpool identifying players to sign.
It was the reason we signed no one those two transfer windows. Once we failed to sign our plan a players we had no plan b or c. Simply because neither Levy nor Poch had the time available to identify players and put the preparation in prior to a transfer. Because they were doing a 16+ hour a day job already.
The club needs a whole department to run transfers. Poch wanted to go back to the old Ferguson Wenger route and run everything. But you can't do that anymore. But his ego wanted to be more than a coach.
Hopefully Mourinho is happy enough to not get involved in transfers that much.
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
At face value you'd appear correct.....who succeeds selling there best players?
BUT you have to square that with the true parameters the club is working under.
Firstly, If when Poch/Levy wanted to sell and they could press a button on the first day of the window and sell Eriksen/Toby/Rose/Wanyama/Dembele we'd have probably raked 180-200m. Now would we be better off than we are now. Probably (even given Pochs apparent blindness for players), Poch would have new players with fresh ears and existing squad members who wanted to be here.....onto 2.0, even just embarking on that would have made the man himself happier.
Secondly, that has obviously not happened and ironically now have a manager that is used to (demands) being backed and would love those kind of funds. And looking at the squad might well need them. Now if the chairman declares we have £60m net to spend per season (it will be something like this) for lets say the next two seasons, is that gonna cut it? So circumstance forces you (its logic really) to look at other avenues to re-invent this team. Poch was a 'greater than the sum of its parts' kinda manager (very useful when faced with limited funds and restrictions), i dont think Jose is (although he does bring other qualities). The loan-to-buy looks a path we're taking but selling a 'big' player could also be.
The point being, its not 'madness', 'i wouldn't shake my head' and i wouldn't 'go ballistic' if without emotion i could see solid reasoning to take a pathway, especially if the other pathways were/are equally or more complicated.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
I think we were in a different place when we sold those players ie still a selling club and more reliant on those individuals than a complete well functioning team.
Also while Poch's stock was high we'd probably sided with 'he knows what he is doing' and supported him.
Rose, Wanyama and Toby (because of his transfer situation) were all obvious move one. Eriksen not so much as he was integral to the team. BUT in a Coutinho way...it would be brave, and it would have been the funds we needed to circulate things.
The alternative is what we have now.
It's annoying because the plan was to sell off players, it's not like that wasn't the plan, it just never (fully) happened. You can drill down into that and look for blame, and there could be some, but it wouldn't be much, especially if it's the players whom refused to sign new contracts, go to clubs who came in for them (which is if course their right) or alternatively a plain lack of interest in them.
People will always bitch (heard it yesterday in the smoky away toilet s at St Mary's), some of this is quite nuanced and people either don't have the mental capacity to understand or are emotionally spouting which renders them useless if they were part of the decision process (which luckily they're not)
This really is a tricky period for the club. We are still fresh into the stadium. We now have few player assets to raise funds (beyond Kane son and Dele) and Levy has a net figure he can't go beyond when supplying funds. The problem is it's looking like there is much work to do.
The thing is we live and breath this club and from inside there is always plenty of coulda/woulda/shoulda conversation BUT from the outside any sensible person would look at us and say what we have done and the decisions the club has made compared to our peers are commendable considering the landscape we operate in.
The biggest issue is that we did not wholly back the previous manager and we need to wholly back the current one. In order for that to happen Levy is going to have to do what he hates the most -over spend to get necessary staff in the door this week. It is a situation which was allowed to drift for too long and now the price has to be paid. But will he?
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
If Levy could sit you down and explain in some detail our financial situation right now and also 1 and 2 seasons ago and it all made sense (even if you thought some of it was a tad cautious), would you with an unemotional head cut him some slack.
The plan to mainly sell to buy was sound and obviously agreed between Levy and Poch.
Mourinho has clearly been told our limits for this window and probably the summer before excepting the job. That's how much Levy will back him, that is the whole.
Unless something exceptional crops up it is naive to think Levy will overspend.
And he has my sympathy as the market is a minefield with bang average players costing £30m. That's why I think we have shifted to the try before you buy model as we can't (unlike others) blow off too many £30m duds.
The whole 'get you cheque book out ' mantra is so 80s and generally unqualified.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
With great respect...
1) I actually have a pretty good flow of information with regards to our finances. I have cut him enormous slack for many years as I believe he has done tremendous things, but the facts remain that he did not make smaller, important moves which would’ve enabled the previous manager to have avoided where we are now. FWIW the second season at Wembley was a killer and cost us a LOT of money. Having said that, we outperformed ALL expectations in reaching the CL Final. It was a position of enormous strength; sadly it now looks like Poch felt he’d been gently swerved one time too many.
2) You are choosing to couch my opinion as “get your chequebook out.” See beyond this gross simplification at the actual points I was making. Trust me, he IS going to have to spend MORE in the next 5 days than he would have had he listened to Pochettino.
3) The facts are that we held onto too many players for too long for too little a margin; how much deadweight could’ve been shifted with some adjustment to asking price? You know the answer and so do I.
4) Had we sold Alderweireld when we had the chance, had we moved Rose on, had we cashed in on Eriksen for a reasonable fee we’d have been OK. We’d have been able to reinvest as we went along. Now, without a DoF who knows what would’ve happened re:recruitment, and that brings me to another point I suspect we agree on. We need one.
In lieu of that, we’re getting Pini Zahavi it appears!!!!!
5) BTW there is a rumour which says Eriksen’s major issue was with Levy not offering a commensurable wage. If you are interested in the rumour PM me.
6) Levy had the man who could deliver it all. He started not giving him he asked for (in small pieces) two seasons ago. Early signings. No squad fodder. Move people on fast. That sort of thing. I would much rather have not qualified for CL this season and had Poch rebuilding for next season with full support. Poch never wanted mega mega signings for the sake of it, christ, he wanted Jack Grealish to nurture him as Eriksen’s replacement and THAT was fudged up by our, err, negotiating stance! No “get yer chequebook aht” bish bash bosh, Levy thought he could squeeze Villa’s sack for 15 mill! Pathetic isn’t it?!
So yes, I agree, the whole “get yer chequebook ahhhhhht” IS dated. But look at where we are and who we appointed, and if you think Jose is going to spend three quiet seasons being forced to work like Poch did, I think THAT is naive.
I have little sympathy for Levy and a lot for Mourinho. I appreciate all Levy has done, but not what he didn’t. By trying to be too clever for too long, this is where we are, so yes, 15 mill is the new 30, etc. Why didn’t we fight harder to resign Llorente for one more season? Because we had Dybala in the bag (a deal Levy had worked on for many many weeks BTW and ultimately could not get done)? Not a good enough reason for me personally.
So yes. Here we are. Levy is going to have to spend. He gambled and here we are. But yeah, don’t think I like it any more than you!!!!
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
The one thing I can never get my head round is people thinking we are control of selling players
We had a CB who many thought was world class a available for £25m.... not one known bid
We have Eriksen available for less than £20m... this is a player who stats show he is genuinely world class. One bid for an Italian team desperately trying to become decent again
We have Wanyama that we had a great offer for and he turned it down
Rose.... well I’m sure we would sell given the chance
the players choose as much as and if not more than the club and maybe, jus5 maybe Poch went soft with them all. Rose himself said even though the board want me gone, if the manger is Bally it keep in bringing me in the office for chats about my play I’ll stay....
You can’t make a player go somewhere whilst he is under contract even if you reduce the fees as some clubs simply don’t want them
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
I know where you're at Steff. You're right royally fudged off at where we're at compared to where we were. We have virtually lost it all. Including a fantastic manager.
And I've said before having someone to point at, to blame helps in reconciling what's happened.
But don't say you appreciate what someone has done as you hold him by the neck up against the wall.
Of course Mourinho will get more money than Poch, as we will have more money. It will be a % of revenue, already set and communicated to Jose. If Jose ends up not liking it he'll be gone. Simple.
Just to pick out a couple of your points. If Eriksen thought his new contract pay level was derisory then I'd expect him or his agent to communicate to other clubs that he's open to offers and then if he gets positive noises agitate for a move. With us getting a decent fee as a result. That didn't happen?
Villa were about to get strangled by FFP....Tony Xia could not get any of his own money into the club due to the rule change in taking money out of the country by the Chinese government. They were desperate. You see it differently but at that moment in time I EXPECT my chairman to be opportunistic. Plus there was no real rival for his signature. It was only when potential new owners arrived on the scene that the dynamic changed as they had potential to fund the club themselves and not the sale of their best player. If Levy knew new owners were coming, he is at fault. If he didn't he did the right thing.
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
As always with you mate a fair and balanced conversation with some great counter-points. I absolutely confess to having some very mixed feelings regarding DL. He has done amazing things yet he remains a businessman first, which is incredibly frustrating as there are times when you have to curb those instincts slightly to accommodate opportunities in what is a bizarre, and until recently, most un-businesslike game.
Regarding Eriksen, there is a little more to it as I heard, but essentially he got fudged off with Levy and did make it clear he would not re-sign. Barca was always his preferred option. We put an enormous price-tag on his head. Of course, we would likely have been confused had he been sold, but if Poch had given it his blessing, I believe we'd have trusted the manager. I would've anyway. We were asking what, 180, 160 mill at one point? Had we sold him for 120, yes, less than Coutinho but still money we could've reinvested? I know, the businessman's creed says you maximize the value of your asset or hold onto it, but given where his head was at, the depreciation of this asset was always going to be rapid. I think it actually says a lot for Eriksen that he is not loitering until the summer and getting that 15 mill on his own cheque!
As for Grealish, for me it is very simple. The manager wanted him. A lot. He thought he had him. And was excited...before learning he didn't. I believe there was a moment in time he thought Grealish was going to be on the pre-season to the US. Until he wasn't. I expect my chairman to back the manager when the stakes are so relatively small.
With regards to pointing an blaming, it is not a one-act play. He has done great things, but he has also Levied too. We are where we are. I support everyone working for us unequivocally. If we end up paying 40 mill for Willian Jose, I will be praying that somehow we have the next Diego Costa, but I won't hold my breath. As ever, I want to wear some egg ;-)
thfcsteff
Terry Dyson
There have been times when all could've been sold. Toby wage-priced himself out in the end, but we had chances to shift him before that moment and didn't, despite issues with Poch and injuries.
Eriksen? We could've softened our stance slightly and still got great money two years ago.
Wanyama I agree is an issue.
Rose? Again, we had chances, although Rose was less an issue until this season IMO.
I agree, tough to move players at times, but even tougher when there is no flexing on the sale price. Look at Tripper; priced very very attractively so as the move could happen. We could've asked 40 for him and most would not have batted an eyelid. We wouldn't have sold him of course. I am sure there is further context to that sale which I am not privy to, but my point is there is usually a pathway in negotiations, but without a DOF, we have one person doing the wheeling dealing.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
The price between the clubs is just part of it
The issue still remains the player has to want to go
Weirdly at our club players want to remain even when unwanted
No one has bid for Toby that I can remember
The nearest we have ever came with some of these was when Mou was at United and even then we took a stance of not for sale and not to a rival
spasm
Gudni Bergsson
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone
The only time Toby looked like going was when United wanted him. But we didn't want to sell to a rival just for money (as you say), however if United hadn't blocked Martial coming the other way the deal would have been done.
Although slightly ironic if Martial was here now and Jose turns up as manager
Bullet
Luka Modric
Probably because we have those beautiful training facilities.
When we had the old Lodge, players were more than happy to bugger off.
I listened to the Spurs Show Clive Allen podcast part 2 yesterday - when he was at Bordeaux, they had 29 players for 22 squad places. 7 of them were told to bugger off and sit way over the other side of the training ground and not talk to anyone. Then he was told that if he drove onto the property he'd be arrested. That is how you get rid of Danny Rose's
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
The players will almost always go if offered more money.
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
Wanyama blows that theory out the water...
Players are getting paid plenty here
And lost clubs don’t offer more money despite the rumours
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Wanyama was looking for Spurs to sweeten the deal so that his new contract would be as good as his existing one. We should’ve done that IMO.
I don’t get your last sentence?
Bedfordspurs
Martin Peters
Sorry that should say MOST clubs don’t pay more than spurs despite the rumours
Dont forget most of these players would be taking a step done leaving us. Eriksen is doing just that but of course he IS getting a pay rise due to his contract situation
ricky2tricky4city
Tom Huddlestone