the genre spanner
Calum Davenport
I'm going to guess
4231
433
442
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4231
433
442
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Fapatalk
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Why the sudden obsession with formations/systems?
- Thread starter Millsy_Yiddo
- Start date
OK. My thought was can people name a formation blind? I have taken some player position diagrams from Who Scored from random games over the last few seasons and anonymised them. All you have to do is guess the formation that the team is playing. I will post links to the original match reports once people have had a chance to guess.
Formation 1
Formation 2
Formation 3
What a great post. Very thought provoking.
I'd guess at
4-2-3-1
4-4-2
4-1-2-3
I would imagine however the initial positions the manager set the team up in could very well have been different. I guess these average position maps are often dictated by the natural instincts of the players in their respective positions to a degree. The managers probably try and encourage or discourage certain movements to keep some semblance of shape.
Really really interesting to look at.
Would be keen to look at Emirates Marketing Project, Barca and Bayern average positions maps like this in comparison to ours.
milo
Jack L. Jones
I'll do some more once we have given people a chance to answer these. I might include the clubs above, if I haven't already.
Junior19
Øyvind Leonhardsen
If you play a 4-4-2 with two sitting central midfielders (ie. Butt/Keane in 90's United), two attacking wingers, and tell one striker to drop off the other, you will pretty much get the same "heat-map" as todays hyped 4-2-3-1.
The main differences between how teams play are not in what "number-combo" one use on the bleedin' teamsheet.
It is alot more down to how they utilize their fullbacks, if they go inside or outside, if you go high intensity, speed, high line/low line, if the team is geared for direct play, what you do when you win the ball.
With the correct player instructions you could manage to get a 3-5-2 look the very same as a 4-3-3.
The formations may say a thing or two about philosophy, though. And about how a team or manager want to appear.
The main differences between how teams play are not in what "number-combo" one use on the bleedin' teamsheet.
It is alot more down to how they utilize their fullbacks, if they go inside or outside, if you go high intensity, speed, high line/low line, if the team is geared for direct play, what you do when you win the ball.
With the correct player instructions you could manage to get a 3-5-2 look the very same as a 4-3-3.
The formations may say a thing or two about philosophy, though. And about how a team or manager want to appear.
I'd expect the wingers to have to swap (if they have the skills) to make a 4-2-3-1 from a 4-4-2.
So that's changing the position of 3 players, 2 of which would need a very different skill set from their 'day job'. I'd say that's quite a different formation.
Jurgen the German
Tommy Harmer
Pretty much this. Football geeks will love to tell you how important formations and tactics are. Don't get me wrong, they are important, but Barcelona and Bayern Munich didn't win European Cups because of their formations, they helped of course, but they ultimately had the best players in Europe. I think it's one of the reasons why AVB was such a hero to some Spurs fans, in reality, he actually wasn't as much of a genius as some would have you believe.
If Tony Pulis was put in charge of Pep Guadiolas Barca side and had them playing route one Stoke type football do you think theyd have been successful as they were?
Similarly would Stoke have survived in the Prem if their cloggers were told to play tiki taka?
Considering the lengthy debates had on here over AVBs tactics and whether they were working/would ever work and the concensus of some since he has left that we are now better because of our new manager and his tactics then i find it strange that GG of all places is somewhere that there are posters dismissing their importance!
milo
Jack L. Jones
milo
Jack L. Jones
OK. My thought was can people name a formation blind? I have taken some player position diagrams from Who Scored from random games over the last few seasons and anonymised them. All you have to do is guess the formation that the team is playing. I will post links to the original match reports once people have had a chance to guess.
Formation 1
Formation 2
Formation 3
Anymore for anymore? I'll post the answers around lunchtime.
Baleforce
Ron Henry
they can be the small margin of difference between to evenly matched sides though
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
has always been an obsession of mine to be honest. from the get go
but i actually care a lot less these days than i used to
but i actually care a lot less these days than i used to
DHSF
Les Ferdinand
Im very much in the Harry Mold as someone who sees what football really is - a simple game. Its a simple game complicated by so many people.
Rather than tactics, I think its more a mental thing. You tell your players to defend and they will go out and defend, you tell your players to attack and they will attack. You give your players instructions and as long as its in line with their abilities, skills and qualities - they will carry it out.
I dont think its so much about tactics as it is about instructions.
Rather than tactics, I think its more a mental thing. You tell your players to defend and they will go out and defend, you tell your players to attack and they will attack. You give your players instructions and as long as its in line with their abilities, skills and qualities - they will carry it out.
I dont think its so much about tactics as it is about instructions.
DHSF
Les Ferdinand
I dont include the intricacies of formations. All this 4231, 442 etc etc etc gets on my nerves and I think its overkill. Instructions are merely preparing the players for how they play.
You can have a 442 that is ultra defensive i.e. have four defenders and four DMs. Or you can have a 4231 that is super attacking i.e. two attacking midfielders, three attacking forwards and a striker.
Its not about formations (which this thread is entitled) but about instructions. I see the two as different.
The numbers are really just a way of showing how a team wants to play. Whether it's attacking or defensive depends on what kind of players you pick. 4-5-1 used to be considered incredibly defensive and boring because it was mostly used by weaker teams to try and shut out their opponents. It has since evolved into 4-2-3-1 and others that can be incredibly attacking. Referring to something as 4-4-2/4-5-1 or even 4-3-3 can be misleading as it isn't accurate enough. For us onlookers a more specific description is better, but it's probably not something they waste a lot of time on in training, there it's more about roles and instructions as you say.
DHSF
Les Ferdinand
Exactly but thats what I was trying to get at. You can have two DMs and the instruction is go and attack and join in the box. The formation tells us that they will be protecting our defence but the instructions are that they wont be. So formations dont tell us too much... thats why I personally see things on the pitch rather than on paper. So in essence I see formations as redundant.
It is as you say just numbers but actually it shows how its set up at the kick off but that is it from the moment on, it doesnt tell us how they will play so much.
Lemonade Money
Steffen Freund
'I regret the day that the theories of 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 came in. People think that one is an attacking formation and the other defensive. There's no such thing. It misleads people, including players. Players think they are there to defend rather than attack. It makes a so-called defensive midfield man think he should always drop back rather than push forward, even when he's got the chance. I never talk about 4-3-3 or 4-4-2. It restricts thinking.'
Bill Nicholson
Bill Nicholson