Why are we such a pushover against the top sides?

[Spur of the moment]

Well precisely. The outcomes of games between two good sides often hinge on 'moments'.

Two missed chances by us, then the referee's decision to award IMO a pretty soft penalty to them for 2-0. Once it's 2-0 against a side of the quality of Liverpool you are seriously up against it and always likely to conceed more as you have to throw bodies forward. As it was, the mistake for the 3rd was just one of those things again, a catastrophic error brutally punished.

On another day, it could have been different, but it wasn't and we got well beaten fair and square.

That's another thing. Just how often does it happen that the bigger boys get the critical breaks? Then again this kind of favouritism also tends to work in our favour against the lesser teams. :lol:

 

[poddell]

I think its because we try to match (if not out play) the biggest teams in our league. If we was to park the bus like the other 15 teams in the league then we may have more success. But because of our ambition to win all our games we try to beat these sides rather than avoiding defeat.

It is a tricky balance to strike. But a draw against the so called top 4 is not a bad result as not only does it gain us a point it prevents them getting 3.

 

[mudshark]

It's not the only issue, and a lot of other good points have been made here, but I think there's been a strong historical element of overreliance on individual talent and responsibility at the expense of the team ethic -- an issue that goes hand-in-hand with the question of the median level of quality in the squad. When a critical mass of real talent is available, the negatives recede into the background, as they did while Redknapp was here, but when too many individual mistakes are being blamed for losses, and where players seem to lack the initiative to provide proper support for one another, whether because they are concentrating too narrowly on prescribed roles or just lazily watching one another attack in ones and twos, I think the implications are fairly clear. Where we have been successful in the recent past, it's largely been down to the star quality of individual players, and once that star quality is recognised, the clock starts ticking on their inevitable replacement, almost always with inferior alternatives. It's a very vicious circle.

 

[Sandman]

I think its because we try to match (if not out play) the biggest teams in our league. If we was to park the bus like the other 15 teams in the league then we may have more success. But because of our ambition to win all our games we try to beat these sides rather than avoiding defeat.

It is a tricky balance to strike. But a draw against the so called top 4 is not a bad result as not only does it gain us a point it prevents them getting 3.

Its not just the so called lower teams that park the bus. Chelsea at Liverpool last season is a good example. They know that Liverpool like to come out full steam, try to get an early goal and then sit on it breaking on the opposition. So they sat deep, frustrated Liverpool then hit them on the break to win 2-0.

Liverpool got a goal in front early and from that point on were able to play their own game. Much like Spurs under AVB. They sat back so much in the second half that we have over 60% possession. We just could not break them down.

Now I remember when MoPo first took over at Southampton. He played us not long after that and he knew to sit and frustrate us which they did for most of the game. But Bale came up with one of his worldies.

So the question has to be. Why did we play Liverpool at their own game so early in MoPo's Managerial reign. I believe it is because he wants to get us used to his pattern and system of play first, before getting us to change tactically for certain teams. That could be a painful start for us. Much like Rodgers early days at Liverpool. They finished 8th in his first season. Then he was able to add some players he needed, then start getting them to alter against other teams. I think we are going the same way. Mopo still needs to see if our players can do what he wants them to do. And in Jan we may see more changes.

 

[VolSpur]

I think this whole push-over against the top sides stuff is a little off the mark.

Look at our biggest defeats in the past year.

2014/15
Pool 3-0 -- A penalty given on a dive from Joe Allen makes it 2-0 and we're forced to go for it. Looking for 2 we end up more open and get hit for a 3rd. If Allen's legs don't stop working when his arm is tickled it's still 1-0 and all to play for with plenty of time left to find the equalizer.

2013/14
City 6-0 -- Two big mistakes from Lloris inside the first 30 minutes or so and we're forced to go for it again against the best team in the league. Ends up a blow-out.

Pool 5-0 -- 2-0 and Soldado scores right before halftime but the ref blows it dead for a "foul" on Bobby. Could've been 2-1 at half. Was 2-0. Still at 2-0 it's not all that desperate as we have another half to make something happen. Stays 2-0 until Paulinho gets sent off at around 60 minutes. Down 2-0 and to 10 men, we're looking for a miracle to come back but have no chance after the sending off.

City 5-1 -- 1-0 at around the 50 minute mark and Danny Rose gets (wrongly) sent off. City make it 2-0 after the penalty and again we find ourselves down 2-0 with 10 men against a top side.

Chelski 4-0 -- Chelski score in the 56 minute to go up 1-0. Shortly after… Kaboul gets sent off and Chelski make the penalty. Same story, same ending.

----

Just bolded the obvious to point out that in all of these games save the City 6-0, we were fighting an uphill battle and even more so after a referee decision. We're a club that goes for it when down 2-0 and sometimes pay the price for that with big losing margins. 2 weak referee decisions and 2 stupid mistakes never help your case when going against the top 4 sides. In all of those games (again save the City debacle) we were definitely in the game with time to play before some kind of a disaster struck (normally a penalty).

All of this to say that I don't think we're that much of a push over against the top sides. We've just had a lot of questionable calls or made stupid mistakes against the top sides. When we make those mistakes or have questionable calls go against us vs weaker sides (a la west ham) we're capable of over coming them and getting a result.

 

[Raziel]

VolSpur, that might be right in a historical context, and certainly last game against Pool, but ...

I don't think it excuses our performances last season, a couple of those games we were torn apart, no excuses.

 

[Bullet]

Great posts over the last 2 pages. I think it is a bit of both, they generally have slightly better players, more lethal when given an opportunity.

These key games have hinged on a silly mistake like a backpass to a striker, or a VERY contentious penalty wherein we lose a goal and a player... at that point we just get steamrollered as we keep gamely going forwards and get caught out time and again.

The referees have a vital role to play nowadays, they often decide the outcome of a match based on a really tough decision taken at 100mph.

Other times strange things have happened like after 10 seconds that speedy Spanish winger Navas just absolutely buries a shot into the top corner, something he is unlikely to do more than once a decade... but it bursts our bubble completely in 10 seconds!

 

[DubaiSpur]

Top teams have top players. The days when we had a team packed with such players (King, Modric, Bale, VdV et al) are long gone, with the present assortment more closely resembling some similarly talented but ultimately mostly above-average players with a few 'potential superstars' (Lloris, Lamela, Eriksen) thrown in. Top players turn games, yes, but they also possess a fierce and burning desire to take responsibility, to seize the game and use it as a canvas to display their talents week in, week out. Because of the lack of such players in our side, no one really takes responsibility on the field when things go against us, preferring instead to withdraw into their shells and let the manager take the blame post-match.

It will take a long time before Poch can build up the self-belief of our players enough to see them believe in themselves when they go toe to toe against the big boys and persevere even when things go against them. The alternative was to buy an on-field lieutenant for Poch, or to buy some real leaders, but it looks like we've done neither, making the slow transition an ironclad necessity. It will happen, but it will be well into this season before we'll look like we aren't afraid of the big boys when their squads full of superstars rock up and smack us about before we've even gotten going.

 

[7percent]

Just seen on the BBC that apparently the only booking we've had this season is Naughton's straight red card.

Is it because we're too nice? maybe we should start kicking people and being more physical.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Just seen on the BBC that apparently the only booking we've had this season is Naughton's straight red card.

Is it because we're too nice? maybe we should start kicking people and being more physical.

But is that what you really want to watch week-in week-out? A bunch of thugs willing to do whatever it takes.?

No thanks.

 

[the dza]

No Bale and VdV. Individual errors. Lack of leadership on the field (see VdV in derby games).

 

[the dza]

But is that what you really want to watch week-in week-out? A bunch of thugs willing to do whatever it takes.?

No thanks.

Not being fannies doesn't mean thugs. Just a bit of edge.

 

[Rorschach]

Just seen on the BBC that apparently the only booking we've had this season is Naughton's straight red card.

Is it because we're too nice? maybe we should start kicking people and being more physical.

Yep we should. I don't mean turn into Pulis' Stoke or anything like that but there is a time and place for a well timed foul/booking and if you think otherwise then you are being naive.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Not being fannies doesn't mean thugs. Just a bit of edge.

This. When was the last time one of our players got hacked and the offending player got surrounded or barked at by one of our players effectively saying "WTF R U DOING?|"

We often are a bunch of fannies (e.g. Balotelli stamp on Parker and no reaction from Modric...)

 

[glorygloryeze]

This thread might be a little knee-jerk at this stage tbf...understandable, but I think Liverpool won because they had a well-thought strategy and more pace on the whole.

I don't think it was a capitulation like some of those last season.

As long as we finish 6th, I'm all good: have another bet with another ****y Gooner who reckons we wont finish higher than 7th. £100 to me if we do...

8-[

 

[Spur of the moment]

This. When was the last time one of our players got hacked and the offending player got surrounded or barked at by one of our players effectively saying "WTF R U DOING?|"

We often are a bunch of fannies (e.g. Balotelli stamp on Parker and no reaction from Modric...)

Justifiable protest is one thing, but systematically and indiscriminately surrounding the ref and barking in his lughole at every little decision? If this is what Tottenham has to be, I'm out.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Justifiable protest is one thing, but systematically and indiscriminately surrounding the ref and barking in his lughole at every little decision? If this is what Tottenham has to be, I'm out.

I said surrounding the PLAYER so he knows he overstepped the mark and that we wont take **** lightly. I didn't mention anything about the Ref

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Its not just the so called lower teams that park the bus. Chelsea at Liverpool last season is a good example. They know that Liverpool like to come out full steam, try to get an early goal and then sit on it breaking on the opposition. So they sat deep, frustrated Liverpool then hit them on the break to win 2-0.

Liverpool got a goal in front early and from that point on were able to play their own game. Much like Spurs under AVB. They sat back so much in the second half that we have over 60% possession. We just could not break them down.

Now I remember when MoPo first took over at Southampton. He played us not long after that and he knew to sit and frustrate us which they did for most of the game. But Bale came up with one of his worldies.

So the question has to be. Why did we play Liverpool at their own game so early in MoPo's Managerial reign. I believe it is because he wants to get us used to his pattern and system of play first, before getting us to change tactically for certain teams. That could be a painful start for us. Much like Rodgers early days at Liverpool. They finished 8th in his first season. Then he was able to add some players he needed, then start getting them to alter against other teams. I think we are going the same way. Mopo still needs to see if our players can do what he wants them to do. And in Jan we may see more changes.

For me we didn't play them at their game and didn't play our own. We didn't press, we didn't work hard enough and we didn't defend as a unit (mainly thanks to Kaboul). We gave away two awful goals and the final one was from chasing the game and no one going to the ball, but at least was a moment of brilliance.

When you look at our defeats against the top sides recently we have been guilty of giving away soft goals. I can accept great goals and great moves but not the majority of the ones we have away last year from individual errors and sheer bloody laziness. Poch can sort that IMO and we will progress

Also for what it's worth the reason we struggled against Liverpool, was their centre backs hardly ever left the edge of the area and played incredibly deep. Compare that to QPR whose centre backs look like they had just left the pub.

 

[Spur of the moment]

I said surrounding the PLAYER so he knows he overstepped the mark and that we wont take **** lightly. I didn't mention anything about the Ref

Okay, sorry, my bad. By all means let's make them aware of our disgust in situations like that so long as we don't sink to the level of cynical aggression and cheating like you see with Chelsea.

Remember the goal that wasn't at Stamford Bridge a few years back, when during a goalmouth melee BAE cleared it off the line? The ref was clearly intimidated by Chelsea's outrageous stage-rehearsed antics because video replays revealed that at no point had the ball crossed the line. Therefore neither he nor his assistant could possibly have been certain it had.

 

[Kandi1977]

Just seen on the BBC that apparently the only booking we've had this season is Naughton's straight red card.

Is it because we're too nice? maybe we should start kicking people and being more physical.

I noticed during the Liverpool game that the scum players were kicking, holding, kicking on the heels and generally playing a bit dirty the whole game. AND they got away with it and frustrated our players.
Another (better) referee than that c@nt Phil Dowd, some of the scums could have easily got more bookings, and even a second yellow. Would have been a different story then!
I don't want us to be like that, but often I feel we would benefit a lot from being more cynical!