• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

What is wrong with our defence?

After conceding 16 goals in 3 games with and without a holding midfielder, the common denominator is our horrible defence.

6-0 against city it was Walker, Dawson, Kaboul, Vertonghen
5-0 against liverpool it was Walker, Capoue, Dawson, Naughton + Paulinho sent off
5-1 against city it was Walker, Dawson, Chiriches, Rose sent off

I'd keep Walker and Vertonghen and buy proper defenders in the summer.

The problems with these matches are in bold, in my opinion. Capoue is a dreadful central defender, Naughton is not a good left back, and Kabould is not good enough (at least not when paired with Dawson). Plus we faced City, a club whose spending power has allowed them to assemble a devastatingly good squad that has already scored 115 goals (!) this season.

Our best defensive lineup is Walker - Dawson - Vertonghen - Rose, IMO. Had we had those four at the back, and not had Paulinho & Rose sent off, I'm very confident we would not have conceded nearly as many goals as we did in these three matches.

We should look to strengthen at the back though. An improvement on Dawson and a left back to compete with Rose, is what I think we need.


Edit: This is only looking at the defence in isolation, which of course doesn't give the whole picture.
 
Not a lot, it's just some thumpings have made them appear worse than they actually are. We'd conceded 5 in 6 games under Sherwood and then bam, five in one game(four of those when we had 10 men), it's pretty much been the same story all season. 19 goals conceded in four games against City x2, Liverpool and West Ham. 12 conceded in the other 19.
 
Individually our defenders have their merits (some less so than other) but there's no organisation or communication there.
That's Dawson's job on the field isn't it? Does Chiriches understand him?

We need to see them play as a unit.
But does Sherwood care enough about defending to drill them?

I'd like to see Vertonghen given extra responsibility in organising everyone at the back. Sure this would put Dawson out but Vertonghen is the better more intelligent defender.
 
Individually our defenders have their merits (some less so than other) but there's no organisation or communication there.
That's Dawson's job on the field isn't it? Does Chiriches understand him?

We need to see them play as a unit.
But does Sherwood care enough about defending to drill them?

I'd like to see Vertonghen given extra responsibility in organising everyone at the back. Sure this would put Dawson out but Vertonghen is the better more intelligent defender.

I think a lot of the problems with our defence come from our midfield. They are not defence minded enough and often leave huge gaps and over-loads that cause problems. Then add the fact that our two best CB's (Kabs and Verts) have been injured/out of position most of the season and we have no cover at LB to the mix.
 
I think a lot of the problems with our defence come from our midfield. They are not defence minded enough and often leave huge gaps and over-loads that cause problems. Then add the fact that our two best CB's (Kabs and Verts) have been injured/out of position most of the season and we have no cover at LB to the mix.

We played sandro dembele and paulinho against city and lost 6-0. I dont know how much more defensive minded we could get tbh.
 
in my head the defense issue is obvious...

Our strongest starting back four is Walker, Kaboul, Verts, Rose (with rose in my opinion being weak)

But how many times have they played together ?

Under both AVB and Sherwood we had Capoue starting, in my head a 5th choice centre back (if you can call him a centre back)

Even recently we have had Chiriches and Dawson..... third and fourth choice centre backs playing most games

how would every other team cope with playing their 3rd and 4th choice centre backs the majority of the season.

Couple with poor Verts

Playing at Left back fair to often, what is he ? our third choice left back ?

Nightmare...
 
I've stoped counting Kaboul as a part of our defence. Until he can acctually put a run of games together I'm not counting on him.

I recon Tim's preffered line up would be


Walker - Dawson - Vertongen - Rose

I've got more confidence in Rose when he's next to Verts, but should still be upgraded on in the summer. Dawson is not going to get any better, and will still be good against the more physical sides, but he will always be exposed as soon as we meet someone with pace and tecnique. In my humble oppinion, if we want to get better, we need a new first coice cb and lb. Who that is, I don't know, I'm sure Gb has a bunch of candidates.

Edit:

Maby Vlad can replace Dawson, but does he not also play on the left of the cb's? More as a understudy to Vertongen rather than a partner imo. (I might be way off here)
 
Last edited:
Rose really needs someone alongside him to keep him aware of where he needs to be in certain situations. Young players learning a position all need this as they will make mistakes. With enough advice he will start taking up positions naturally. This is why for me Verts is crucial as the guy will marshall the backline and keep them all organised.

King did it for years and we all noted how much better our back line looked with him in it. I honestly think it's a case of having someone there who recognises dangerous situations quickly and arranges the defence straight away.
 
I think if you deploy two out and out wing backs such as Walker and Rose then you have to have dedicated DM cover IMO. Otherwiise you expose the whole width of the pitch to the two CB's, one of which isn't the fastest. It's a recipe for disaster IMO when the opposition is on the counter.

When we have our defensive shape the two CM's need to step back about 5 yards to narrow that channel we need to get some concerted pressure applied on the ball.

All of this we are not doing too well at the moment IMO, but it's really only the good teams that exploit the spaces well enough that show us up.
 
Spot on, but we don't like DMs :eek:

In the wonky though, Walker seems to be sitting back as he has Lennon keeping the width.
 
Spot on, but we don't like DMs :eek:

In the wonky though, Walker seems to be sitting back as he has Lennon keeping the width.

Yeah seems that way but there is nothing to stop Tim asking both Bentaleb and Dembele to cover that space a bit better. I like Bentaleb but I still think Sandro/Demebel is our best pairing.

I was very impressed with City's 'Guardiola-esque' high pressure tactic. They were all over the man is possession in numbers immediately after they lost possession. Straight from the Barca defensive handbook that one. If you are bored have a read of this ....


We all see that Barcelona are brilliant. The only problem is understanding just how they do it. That’s where my friend Albert Capellas comes in. Whenever he and I run into each other somewhere in Europe, we talk about Barça. Not many people know the subject better. Capellas is now assistant manager at Vitesse Arnhem in Holland, but before that he was coordinator of Barcelona’s great youth academy, the Masia. He helped bring a boy named Sergio Busquets from a rough local neighbourhood to Barça. He trained Andres Iniesta and Victor Valdes in their youth teams. In all, Capellas worked nine years for his hometown club.

During our last conversation, over espressos in an Arnhem hotel, I had several “Aha” moments. I have watched Pep Guardiola’s Barcelona umpteen times, but only now am I finally beginningto see. Guardiola’s Barcelona are great not merely because they have great players. They also have great tactics – different not just from any other team today, but also different from Barcelona teams pre-Guardiola. Barça are now so drilled on the field that in some ways they are more like an American gridiron football team than a soccer one.

Before getting into the detail of their game, it’s crucial to understand just how much of it comes from Guardiola. When a Barcelona vice president mused to me four years ago that she’d like to see the then 37-year-old Pep be made head coach, I never imagined it would happen. Guardiola was practically a novice. The only side he had ever coached was Barça’s second team. However, people in the club who had worked with him – men like the club’s then president Joan Laporta, and the then director of football Txiki Beguiristain - had already clocked him as special. Not only did Guardiola know Barcelona’s house style inside out. He also knew how it could be improved.

Guardiola once compared Barcelona’s style to a cathedral. Johan Cruijff, he said, as Barça’s supreme player in the 1970s and later as coach, had built the cathedral. The task of those who came afterwards was to renovate and update it. Guardiola is always looking for updates. If a random person in the street says something interesting about the game, Guardiola listens. He thinks about football all the time. He took ideas from another Dutch Barcelona manager, Louis van Gaal, but also from his years playing for Brescia and Roma in Italy, the home of defence. Yet because Guardiola has little desire to explain his ideas to the media, you end up watching Barça without a codebook.

Cruijff was perhaps the most original thinker in football’s history, but most of his thinking was about attack. He liked to say that he didn’t mind conceding three goals, as long as Barça scored five. Well, Guardiola also wanted to score five, but he minded conceding even one. If Barcelona is a cathedral, Guardiola has added the buttresses. In Barça’s first 28 league games this season, they have let in only 22 goals. Here are some of “Pep”’s innovations, or the secrets of FC Barcelona:

1. Pressure on the ball
Before Barcelona played Manchester United in the Champions League final at Wembley last May, Alex Ferguson said that the way Barça pressured their opponents to win the ball back was “breathtaking”. That, he said, was Guardiola’s innovation. Ferguson admitted that United hadn’t known how to cope with it in the Champions League final in Rome in 2009. He thought it would be different at Wembley. It wasn’t.

Barcelona start pressing (hunting for the ball) the instant they lose possession. That is the perfect time to press because the opposing player who has just won the ball is vulnerable. He has had to take his eyes off the game to make his tackle or interception, and he has expended energy. That means he is unsighted, and probably tired. He usually needs two or three seconds to regain his vision of the field. So Barcelona try to dispossess him before he can give the ball to a better-placed teammate.

Furthermore, if the guy won the ball back in his own defence, and Barcelona can instantly win it back again, then the way to goal is often clear. This is where Lionel Messi’s genius for tackling comes in. The little man has such quick reflexes that he sometimes wins a tackle a split-second after losing one.

The Barcelona player who lost the ball leads the hunt to regain it. But he never hunts alone. His teammates near the ball join him. If only one or two Barça players are pressing, it’s too easy for the opponent to pass around them.

2. The “five-second rule”
If Barça haven’t won the ball back within five seconds of losing it, they then retreat and build a compact ten-man wall. The distance between the front man in the wall (typically Messi) and their last defender (say, Carles Puyol) is only 25 to 30 metres. It’s hard for any opponent to pass their way through such a small space. The Rome final was a perfect demonstration of Barcelona’s wall: whenever United won the ball and kept it, they faced eleven precisely positioned opponents, who stood there and said, in effect: “Try and get through this.”

It’s easy for Barcelona to be compact, both when pressing and when drawing up their wall, because their players spend most of the game very near each other. Xavi and Iniesta in particular seldom stray far from the ball. Cruijff recently told the former England manager Steve McClaren, now with FC Twente in Holland: "Do you know how Barcelona win the ball back so quickly? It's because they don't have to run back more than 10 metres as they never pass the ball more than 10 metres."

3. More rules of pressing
Once Barcelona have built their compact wall, they wait for the right moment to start pressing again. They don’t choose the moment on instinct. Rather, there are very precise prompts that tell them when to press. One is if an opponent controls the ball badly. If the ball bounces off his foot, he will need to look downwards to locate it, and at that moment he loses his overview of the pitch. That’s when the nearest Barcelona players start hounding him.

There’s another set prompt for Barça to press: when the opposing player on the ball turns back towards his own goal. When he does that, he narrows his options: he can no longer pass forward, unless Barcelona give him time to turn around again. Barcelona don’t give him time. Their players instantly hound the man, forcing him to pass back, and so they gain territory.

4. The “3-1 rule”
If an opposing player gets the ball anywhere near Barcelona’s penalty area, then Barça go Italian. They apply what they call the “3-1 rule”: one of Barcelona’s four defenders will advance to tackle the man with the ball, and the other three defenders will assemble in a ring about two or three metres behind the tackler. That provides a double layer of protection. Guardiola picked this rule up in Italy. It’s such a simple yet effective idea that you wonder why all top teams don’t use it.

5. No surprise
When Barcelona win the ball, they do something unusual. Most leading teams treat the moment the ball changes hands – “turnover”, as it’s called in basketball – as decisive. At that moment, the opponents are usually out of position, and so if you can counterattack quickly, you have an excellent chance of scoring. Teams like Manchester United and Arsenal often try to score in the first three seconds after winning possession. So their player who wins the ball often tries to hit an instant splitting pass. Holland – Barcelona’s historic role models – do this too.

But when a Barcelona player wins the ball, he doesn’t try for a splitting pass. The club’s attitude is: he has won the ball, that’s a wonderful achievement, and he doesn’t need to do anything else special. All he should do is slot the ball simply to the nearest teammate. Barcelona’s logic is that in winning the ball, the guy has typically forfeited his vision of the field. So he is the worst-placed player to hit a telling ball.

This means that Barcelona don’t rely on the element of surprise. They take a few moments to get into formation, and then pretty much tell their opponents, “OK, here we come.” The opposition knows exactly what Barça are going to do. The difficulty is stopping it.

The only exception to this rule is if the Barça player wins the ball near the opposition’s penalty area. Then he goes straight for goal.

6. Possession is nine-tenths of the game
Keeping the ball has been Barcelona’s key tactic since Cruijff’s day. Most teams don’t worry about possession. They know you can have oodles of possession and lose. But Barcelona aim to have 65 or 70 per cent of possession in a game. Last season in Spain, they averaged more than 72 per cent; so far this year, they are at about 70 per cent.

The logic of possession is twofold. Firstly, while you have the ball, the other team can’t score. A team like Barcelona, short on good tacklers, needs to defend by keeping possession. As Guardiola has remarked, they are a “horrible” team without the ball.

Secondly, if Barça have the ball, the other team has to chase it, and that is exhausting. When the opponents win it back, they are often so tired that they surrender it again immediately. Possession gets Barcelona into a virtuous cycle.

Barça are so fanatical about possession that a defender like Gerald Pique will weave the most intricate passes inside his own penalty area rather than boot the ball away. In almost all other teams, the keeper at least is free to boot. In the England side, for instance, it’s typically Joe Hart who gives the ball away with a blind punt. This is a weakness of England’s game, but the English attitude seems to be that there is nothing to be done about it: keepers can’t pass. Barcelona think differently.

Jose Mourinho, Real Madrid’s coach and Barcelona’s nemesis, has tried to exploit their devotion to passing. In the Bernabeu in December, Madrid’s forwards chased down Valdes from the game’s first kickoff, knowing he wouldn’t boot clear. The keeper miscued a pass, and Karim Benzema scored after 23 seconds. Yet Valdes kept passing, and Barcelona won 1-3. The trademark of Barcelona-raised goalkeepers – one shared only by Ajax-raised goalkeepers, like Edwin van der Sar – is that they can all play football like outfield players.

7. The “one-second rule”
No other football team plays the Barcelona way. That’s a strength, but it’s also a weakness. It makes it very hard for Barça to integrate outsiders into the team, because the outsiders struggle to learn the system. Barcelona had a policy of buying only “Top Ten” players – men who arguably rank among the ten best footballers on earth – yet many of them have failed in the Nou Camp. Thierry Henry and Zlatan Ibrahimovic did, while even David Villa, who knew Barcelona’s game from playing it with Spain, ended up on the bench before breaking his leg.

Joan Oliver, Barcelona’s previous chief executive, explained the risk of transfers by what he called the “one-second rule”. The success of a move on the pitch is decided in less than a second. If a player needs a few extra fractions of a second to work out where his teammate is going, because he doesn’t know the other guy’s game well, the move will usually break down. A new player can therefore lose you a match in under a second.

Pedro isn’t a great footballer, but because he was raised in the Masia he can play Barcelona’s game better than stars from outside. The boys in the Masia spend much of their childhood playing passing games, especially Cruijff’s favorite, six against three. Football, Cruijff once said, is choreography.

Nobody else thinks like that. That’s why most of the Barcelona side is homegrown. It’s more a necessity than a choice. Still, most of the time it works pretty well.
 
The problems with these matches are in bold, in my opinion. Capoue is a dreadful central defender, Naughton is not a good left back, and Kabould is not good enough (at least not when paired with Dawson). Plus we faced City, a club whose spending power has allowed them to assemble a devastatingly good squad that has already scored 115 goals (!) this season.

First of all Capoue is a midfielder and Naughton is a right back not a left back. I would also suggest the problem is more Dawson than Kaboul playhing along side him. Dawson is the slowest defender at the club and has the turning speed of an ocean liner. Poor refereeing decisions have some how meant that he has avoided costing us more penalties. Also is long punts up field results in a high turnover of possession.
 
4. The “3-1 rule”
If an opposing player gets the ball anywhere near Barcelona’s penalty area, then Barça go Italian. They apply what they call the “3-1 rule”: one of Barcelona’s four defenders will advance to tackle the man with the ball, and the other three defenders will assemble in a ring about two or three metres behind the tackler. That provides a double layer of protection. Guardiola picked this rule up in Italy. It’s such a simple yet effective idea that you wonder why all top teams don’t use it.

Eh - how close together is the ring meant to be? It seems to suggest the ring is no more than say 10 metres across but then what about the full back areas and combatting the wingers etc?
 
Countless times today, the full backs had pushed up too high plus our midfield had gone walk about leaving it two on two.

If you do that often you get caught out, since Tim has taken over we have pushed forward more and the defence is paying for it at the moment
 
Countless times today, the full backs had pushed up too high plus our midfield had gone walk about leaving it two on two.

If you do that often you get caught out, since Tim has taken over we have pushed forward more and the defence is paying for it at the moment

We had to push up because we were chasing the game because the defence let in a goal after leaving a striker through on goal from a Hull goal kick.
 
Back