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Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

We sold Walker and that didn't work out too well and with our form in the market over that period with Hitchen in his role there's more chance than not we'd have not fared any better selling our star players.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't probably best sums up that period.

At this point in time however with the current structure i do agree with the idea of not being wedded to star players
 
billyiddo said:
We sold Walker and that didn't work out too well and with our form in the market over that period with Hitchen in his role there's more chance than not we'd have not fared any better selling our star players.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't probably best sums up that period.

At this point in time however with the current structure i do agree with the idea of not being wedded to star players
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Fully agreed.

It's easy to say from the outside sell this player, buy this player. The people at the club have to live with their decisions.

I agree on not being wedded to star players, but other than Son our best players are fairly young and for now it's more a question of being able to match their ambitions rather than sell to move in.
 
braineclipse said:
Fully agreed.

It's easy to say from the outside sell this player, buy this player. The people at the club have to live with their decisions.

I agree on not being wedded to star players, but other than Son our best players are fairly young and for now it's more a question of being able to match their ambitions rather than sell to move in.
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Always easy in hindsight as well.

We went to having "the most exciting young player in world football" to effectively releasing him for free to a relegation scrapping team in the space of 3 or 4 years. Yet if we'd have cashed in when he was hit property we'd have got pelters for being a feeder club.

This wasn't Billy's point but the move for Walker was right for him at the time, he's won a brick load and earned a lot along the way. If you really want to keep hold of players of his caliber you have to offer more (not just financially). It's not his fault if we didn't reinvest the money well, it was still the right time for him to move on. Resenting people for wanting more is a bit silly when we have the likes of Johnson making the step up to us because he had outgrown Forest's ambitions, it's the way football works.
 
I hear the hindsight arguement but for me this isn't really hindsight when I suggested we do those things at the actual time.

I was one of the few suggesting that we should sell Eriksen back in 2018 so it's not really me looking back and cherry picking decisions that fell a specific way and besides that's where visionary leadership comes in. That's when you want your leader to be ahead of the pack, no, it's where he needs to be ahead of the pack.

There is no reason why we cannot also be one of those sides who pick up players before they truly proven to be at the top level. For it seems like decades I've been arguing that we should be following the Dortmund, Sevilla and RB clubs player recruitment model, so again it's not really hindsight when I've said the same things consistently.

Anyway it seems to be the stratedgy that we are now going for, so at the least the club has finally decided to go in on that model.
 
Bishop said:
I hear the hindsight arguement but for me this isn't really hindsight when I suggested we do those things at the actual time.

I was one of the few suggesting that we should sell Eriksen back in 2018 so it's not really me looking back and cherry picking decisions that fell a specific way and besides that's where visionary leadership comes in. That's when you want your leader to be ahead of the pack, no, it's where he needs to be ahead of the pack.

There is no reason why we cannot also be one of those sides who pick up players before they truly proven to be at the top level. For it seems like decades I've been arguing that we should be following the Dortmund, Sevilla and RB clubs player recruitment model, so again it's not really hindsight when I've said the same things consistently.

Anyway it seems to be the stratedgy that we are now going for, so at the least the club has finally decided to go in on that model.
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Same here, I was all for selling him.
Problem was no one would pay what we wanted and the clubs he had his heart set on didn't want him.
We all, myself included, rated that team really highly, but did anyone actually try to seriously tempt any of them away?
That in my view tells it's own story.
 
glasgowspur said:
Same here, I was all for selling him.
Problem was no one would pay what we wanted and the clubs he had his heart set on didn't want him.
We all, myself included, rated that team really highly, but did anyone actually try to seriously tempt any of them away?
That in my view tells it's own story.
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I’m not sure anyone was serious about buying any of that team because they all knew the value/price we put on them
And as we know, if we had sold someone that was partying for us the fans would have gone mad
Even though in football terms it would have been the right things to do
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I’m not sure anyone was serious about buying any of that team because they all knew the value/price we put on them
And as we know, if we had sold someone that was partying for us the fans would have gone mad
Even though in football terms it would have been the right things to do
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Their value to us, not just as players but the optics of us selling them, was worth more to us than it was to any potential buyers.
However when you look back at the transfer of Bale, modric, Berbatov, Carrick or walker then if player is good enough our valuation isn't going to scare teams off.
Leaving Harry out of it because there's not a club in the world who wouldn't take him, it doesn't look like anyone was that intent on our players.
 
Bishop said:
I hear the hindsight arguement but for me this isn't really hindsight when I suggested we do those things at the actual time.

I was one of the few suggesting that we should sell Eriksen back in 2018 so it's not really me looking back and cherry picking decisions that fell a specific way and besides that's where visionary leadership comes in. That's when you want your leader to be ahead of the pack, no, it's where he needs to be ahead of the pack.

There is no reason why we cannot also be one of those sides who pick up players before they truly proven to be at the top level. For it seems like decades I've been arguing that we should be following the Dortmund, Sevilla and RB clubs player recruitment model, so again it's not really hindsight when I've said the same things consistently.

Anyway it seems to be the stratedgy that we are now going for, so at the least the club has finally decided to go in on that model.
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It is the model we seem to go for now. It was also the model we got a lot of success with before as well.

It's also now the model most teams use at least as a part of their model. The competition for those players is increasing and the difficulties in finding the right players to push for is still significant. But it should be an important part of what we do.

Good to have a manager who seems happy to work with younger players again. Would be good to see some of the academy lads make the step up too, but on that I'm patient with Ange. Think he came in at a time with a lot of talent in the academy, but with very few of them actually at the point where they were ready to make the step up to our first team. I think that may be the case next season as well.
 
Another point...

Whereas Dortmund for example seem fairly content to sell their best players, knowing that the financial step to the richer clubs isn't going to be closed we're not quite going for the same overall model.

Dortmund "knew" Bellingham would be sold, was just a question of timing and money. They signing Haaland with a release clause knowing that he would move on if he stepped up. They're happy enough and comfortable enough with their place in the football hierarchy.

I don't think we are. I don't think Levy is. I don't think Ange is. Our situation is different to Dortmund, Sevilla and the RB clubs. We're in London, in the richest and biggest league in the world. We know that if things fall our way we have the potential to mostly close that financial gap that I don't think those other clubs can.

That probably also leads to us sometimes keeping players "too long". Hoping that the next year or two years will be when it clicks and that they will be part of making that difference. It's a gamble it can be worth taking imo.

Frankly if Dortmund had Romero or VdV it would be a question of when, not if, they would move on. They would take the setback and buy again. Dortmund did incredibly for a while losing some of their best players without getting worse, but of course it couldn't last. They can recruit with an acceptance that if it takes a couple of years to develop the team/players again and they have to sell one or two of their best players in the process that's more or less fine.

That's not the case for us. We tried to match the ambitions Kane had. We will try to match the ambitions of Romero, VdV etc. And that will impact our recruitment too. Though part of that recruitment should be getting the best talents before they're the best players. But a part of our recruitment will also be focused on fixing whatever problems need fixing here and now. With some special signings doing both hopefully.
 
braineclipse said:
Another point...

Whereas Dortmund for example seem fairly content to sell their best players, knowing that the financial step to the richer clubs isn't going to be closed we're not quite going for the same overall model.

Dortmund "knew" Bellingham would be sold, was just a question of timing and money. They signing Haaland with a release clause knowing that he would move on if he stepped up. They're happy enough and comfortable enough with their place in the football hierarchy.

I don't think we are. I don't think Levy is. I don't think Ange is. Our situation is different to Dortmund, Sevilla and the RB clubs. We're in London, in the richest and biggest league in the world. We know that if things fall our way we have the potential to mostly close that financial gap that I don't think those other clubs can.

That probably also leads to us sometimes keeping players "too long". Hoping that the next year or two years will be when it clicks and that they will be part of making that difference. It's a gamble it can be worth taking imo.

Frankly if Dortmund had Romero or VdV it would be a question of when, not if, they would move on. They would take the setback and buy again. Dortmund did incredibly for a while losing some of their best players without getting worse, but of course it couldn't last. They can recruit with an acceptance that if it takes a couple of years to develop the team/players again and they have to sell one or two of their best players in the process that's more or less fine.

That's not the case for us. We tried to match the ambitions Kane had. We will try to match the ambitions of Romero, VdV etc. And that will impact our recruitment too. Though part of that recruitment should be getting the best talents before they're the best players. But a part of our recruitment will also be focused on fixing whatever problems need fixing here and now. With some special signings doing both hopefully.
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I agree that were we have failed in the past is a lack of willing to sell but that's a mistake imo, because no matter what we say we have never been able and willing to spend what the top clubs have been able to especially not in the era leading up to the build of the stadium.

It was foolhardy to knowing we couldn't/wouldn't spend to just hold on to the players and let the squad stagnate. That isn't good leadership, that's not showing any understanding of football matters.

I honestly don't see the point in holding on to fan favourites if it ultimately doesn't lead to anything. The point of having a Kane, a Son or a Romero is that we build upon them and it leads to team success. If we can't do that we might as well reinvest the money we can earn from them attempt to build the squad alternatively, because something that you didn't mention is having a surplus talent can also be a means of earning money and building your squad. You buy a few potentials you keep the ones that work and if done well you sell on the spares. A lot of teams have actually managed to do that come out better on the other side and that's all I care about.
 
Bishop said:
I agree that were we have failed in the past is a lack of willing to sell but that's a mistake imo, because no matter what we say we have never been able and willing to spend what the top clubs have been able to especially not in the era leading up to the build of the stadium.

It was foolhardy to knowing we couldn't/wouldn't spend to just hold on to the players and let the squad stagnate. That isn't good leadership, that's not showing any understanding of football matters.

I honestly don't see the point in holding on to fan favourites if it ultimately doesn't lead to anything. The point of having a Kane, a Son or a Romero is that we build upon them and it leads to team success. If we can't do that we might as well reinvest the money we can earn from them attempt to build the squad alternatively, because something that you didn't mention is having a surplus talent can also be a means of earning money and building your squad. You buy a few potentials you keep the ones that work and if done well you sell on the spares. A lot of teams have actually managed to do that come out better on the other side and that's all I care about.
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There was the spending limitations for a while, but it was a fairly limited time. I'd argue squad stagnation has mostly been a result of poor spending rather than not spending or not selling.

We didn't get the success of trophies, but we did have the best team, performances and league positions we've had in decades with our approach.

If we had spent successfully when we held on to Kane I think that could have worked out. Same with Eriksen. Had we sold both or one of them earlier and spent the money poorly it obviously wouldn't have worked out. As we see with Dortmund their strategy isn't without it's problems and that's in a less competitive league.

I think where we are now seemingly with an ability to have a fairly considerable net spend isn't directly comparable to previous seasons when we couldn't. I think we should aim for matching the ambitions of the best players already here over the coming years and not look to sell our best players unless forced into it. But for either approach the quality of recruitment is a necessity to get right.
 
Bishop said:
I agree that were we have failed in the past is a lack of willing to sell but that's a mistake imo, because no matter what we say we have never been able and willing to spend what the top clubs have been able to especially not in the era leading up to the build of the stadium.

It was foolhardy to knowing we couldn't/wouldn't spend to just hold on to the players and let the squad stagnate. That isn't good leadership, that's not showing any understanding of football matters.

I honestly don't see the point in holding on to fan favourites if it ultimately doesn't lead to anything. The point of having a Kane, a Son or a Romero is that we build upon them and it leads to team success. If we can't do that we might as well reinvest the money we can earn from them attempt to build the squad alternatively, because something that you didn't mention is having a surplus talent can also be a means of earning money and building your squad. You buy a few potentials you keep the ones that work and if done well you sell on the spares. A lot of teams have actually managed to do that come out better on the other side and that's all I care about.
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Selling is whats killed us
We have been woeful at it and it’s meant a HUGE contracted squad
 
braineclipse said:
If we had spent successfully when we held on to Kane I think that could have worked out
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Yep, we wasted 80% of our hard-earned-money on players that barely had any impact.
It is of course massively important not to waste your money like we did.
So many bad purchases I don't need to list them here, barely had a positive impact on the pitch at all.
 
Dunno if it's even worth posting but there's a rumour coming out of Australia that Ange is not all that happy and there's a mutual desire between him and Man Utd.
 
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