Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[Grays_1890]

Celtic have won something like 14 of the last 17 trophies in Scotland, the mentality is there, 9 trophies in a row, 9 titles in a row.
You can't compare that to what Poch faced when he came here.
It's a long journey for us and already I hope ange gets to be the manager to break our dry spell, he deserves it, he has definitely moved us further and quicker along the road than anyone else.

I love Poch so its not a slight at him but the reality its hard to talk about winning things when you have not done that. Ange has won at every club or job he has been in, every success is relative to its own standard so at least he knows what it takes to win, he knows what he is talking about when it comes to creating that mentality IMO, you can hear it even after yesterdays game. Where that might fall down as it has before is the club he is at, but as I say if its Ange or anyone else we need to do these harder yards otherwise its just going to be a cycle of failure.

He needs backing from everyone

 

[glasgowspur]

I love Poch so its not a slight at him but the reality its hard to talk about winning things when you have not done that. Ange has won at every club or job he has been in, every success is relative to its own standard so at least he knows what it takes to win, he knows what he is talking about when it comes to creating that mentality IMO, you can hear it even after yesterdays game. Where that might fall down as it has before is the club he is at, but as I say if its Ange or anyone else we need to do these harder yards otherwise its just going to be a cycle of failure.

He needs backing from everyone

I understand that it's not a poke at Poch, but winning trophies at Celtic and winning trophies at spurs is not comparable.
Ange winning at Celtic is not going to turn us into winners at spurs.
At Celtic he was competing against managers who had won less than Poch, at spurs he's competing against two elite managers, a manager who has won multiple European trophies and one who has won a couple of f a cups.
Unlike at Celtic most of his competitors also have more funds than he does.
He does definitely have a better way of expressing his mentality than Poch had, it also appears to be stronger and more defined. The rebuff last night of the praise for the style was brilliant, we are here to win, the style is a means to an end and that end is winning.
I suppose for me the biggest difference between ange and Poch is that Poch wanted the players to buy in and hoped eventually they would come round to his way of thinking, ange doesn't appear to care. It's there if you want it, if you don't your out.
Ange has a ruthlessness Poch just didn't have.

 

[Grays_1890]

I understand that it's not a poke at Poch, but winning trophies at Celtic and winning trophies at spurs is not comparable.
Ange winning at Celtic is not going to turn us into winners at spurs.
At Celtic he was competing against managers who had won less than Poch, at spurs he's competing against two elite managers, a manager who has won multiple European trophies and one who has won a couple of f a cups.
Unlike at Celtic most of his competitors also have more funds than he does.
He does definitely have a better way of expressing his mentality than Poch had, it also appears to be stronger and more defined. The rebuff last night of the praise for the style was brilliant, we are here to win, the style is a means to an end and that end is winning.
I suppose for me the biggest difference between ange and Poch is that Poch wanted the players to buy in and hoped eventually they would come round to his way of thinking, ange doesn't appear to care. It's there if you want it, if you don't your out.
Ange has a ruthlessness Poch just didn't have.

Its clear from Ange vocab what he wants to achieve, mentioned the scars some players have and that they need to move on (was in an early interview) and he speaks specifically about the mentality of the player he wants. This kind of almost deep dive into Spurs is long overdue.

In the meantime I don't blame him for a striker missing an open goal and us setting up the oppos two goals, thats a story that every manager in the last 6 years has had to deal with.

 

[tommysvr]

I understand that it's not a poke at Poch, but winning trophies at Celtic and winning trophies at spurs is not comparable.
Ange winning at Celtic is not going to turn us into winners at spurs.
At Celtic he was competing against managers who had won less than Poch, at spurs he's competing against two elite managers, a manager who has won multiple European trophies and one who has won a couple of f a cups.
Unlike at Celtic most of his competitors also have more funds than he does.
He does definitely have a better way of expressing his mentality than Poch had, it also appears to be stronger and more defined. The rebuff last night of the praise for the style was brilliant, we are here to win, the style is a means to an end and that end is winning.
I suppose for me the biggest difference between ange and Poch is that Poch wanted the players to buy in and hoped eventually they would come round to his way of thinking, ange doesn't appear to care. It's there if you want it, if you don't your out.
Ange has a ruthlessness Poch just didn't have.

I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re saying, but I said a few times in my pre-appointment posts about wanting Ange that his most impressive feat was with Yokohama F Marinos. He managed to turn a pretty poor side (not won the league since 2004) into title winners in a couple of years, doing it via an interpreter. Far more impressive than winning something with Celtic.

 

[Surfless]

Playing like Real Madrid, but not winning. Big difference. Manure play like brick, but still manage to get results.
And at this point in the season, in the state we're in, I'd rather be lucky than good.

they have the same points as us, so hardly a good comparison.

 

[Bishop]

I have no concerns with Ange. I'm happy for him to live or die by his principles. Like with Conte it just means that you have to get players in that suit his system. Unlike with Conte this is a much easier thing to do as his system isn't so niche and frankly unappealing. If the transfer committee can continue to bring in suitable players then Ange will be a success. Just look at what he's managed so far with squad of largely deadwood.

The issue is we started so well and some people have let that dream run away with them and now their expectations are unrealistic. We are a good side when everyone is fit, we can play anyone and even beat any team in the PL but as soon as we lose some players the thin quality of the squad is apparent.

I would argue we really only have 12 players maybe 13, which would the fully fit first 11 we've seen this season with Johnson instead of Richy and Bentancur as the 12th player and maybe Royal as the 13th. Pretty much everyone else is debatable or a significant drop on quality so what do we really expect given the raft of injuries we have suffered. Beef the squad up with more quality players and we won't have these dips.

 

[glasgowspur]

I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re saying, but I said a few times in my pre-appointment posts about wanting Ange that his most impressive feat was with Yokohama F Marinos. He managed to turn a pretty poor side (not won the league since 2004) into title winners in a couple of years, doing it via an interpreter. Far more impressive than winning something with Celtic.

I know nothing about Japanese football, so didn't want to comment on that. I have no perspective of his achievements in Japan.
Hopefully I'm not coming across as a negative nelly about ange here, because nothing could be further from the truth.
It does concern me that we (as in the fan base) are heading down the same road we did with Poch, where every victory is over celebrated and every defeat over analysed.
How long before the R word is mentioned, gone from relegation fears to champions form to relegation form when in reality neither was ever likely.
Ange will get us competing with our peers and probably challenging city and Liverpool but not quite knocking them off thier perch because that is our potential. That is plenty good enough for me, especially if he does it playing this style of football.

 

[Grays_1890]

I know nothing about Japanese football, so didn't want to comment on that. I have no perspective of his achievements in Japan.
Hopefully I'm not coming across as a negative nelly about ange here, because nothing could be further from the truth.
It does concern me that we (as in the fan base) are heading down the same road we did with Poch, where every victory is over celebrated and every defeat over analysed.
How long before the R word is mentioned, gone from relegation fears to champions form to relegation form when in reality neither was ever likely.
Ange will get us competing with our peers and probably challenging city and Liverpool but not quite knocking them off thier perch because that is our potential. That is plenty good enough for me, especially if he does it playing this style of football.

Balance is what we clearly need, like @Bishop I'm absolutely fine where we are, we gifted that win last night with a back pass an a Davies assist and we did it in another game without the best AM in the league and a defender who is crucial to how we play. Year one after one window I'm relaxed even if frustrated

 

[glasgowspur]

Balance is what we clearly need, like @Bishop I'm absolutely fine where we are, we gifted that win last night with a back pass an a Davies assist and we did it in another game without the best AM in the league and a defender who is crucial to how we play. Year one after one window I'm relaxed even if frustrated

Frustrated is definitely my overriding emotion.
It's not the defeats, it's not the manner of the defeats even, it's just the injustice of the defeats.
Other than the Liverpool offside decision I can't think of a game where I'd say we have had the balance of luck or decisions ggo our way.

 

[Surfless]

I was on the edge of my seat last night, kicking every ball and heading every header - that's what Ange brings for me - the old love of our team. The way we had the Spammers hemmed in last night for the first 30-35 minutes was exceptional, when considered in terms of the job of pressing and shutting down the oppositions impact on the game.

Where we fell short, again, was that despite a shed load of high intensity work on the edge of their box, everyone apart from Porro and Johnson seemed scared to shoot. Yes the ball might fly over the bar or slide wide, but if you don't buy a ticket you can't win the lottery....

We're going to spank someone soon, I'm telling you. I predicted it was going to be last night and I'm disappointed we didn't, but I'm telling you, in the locker somewhere is high scoring win, a five or sixer. When that happens, we need to bottle that emotion and keep striving for that feeling again.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If when ange was appointed we would have been told that after 16 games we were three points behind city, challenging for top four, had an unbeaten run of 10 games, and out of the top teams only been beaten by Chelsea (under mad circumstances) all while playing really good football we would all be creaming ourselves.
Yes we are on a bad run, but there are reasons for it, those reasons are temporary, things will improve.
It's frustrating but when we get back to even close to full strength we are more than capable of going on another long unbeaten run.

I’m not sure they are temporary
Out football looks like we should smash teams
But in reality, even with a fully fit team we have down that once. Against a really naive team
Every time we have played a well organised side we have struggled to score
So for me, it’s not temporary
The football is amazing to watch
Hell I took a spam fan joke Alan night as I drove and he was a mate of a mate … he said it was the best footy he had seen… but we lost
We deserved to lose too because it’s not like the opposition keeper is having worldies
Our issue is we haven’t got enough goals in the team

I’ll add that I’m convinced he will fix it and we will fly. But the lack of goals for the football is a worry

 

[DubSpur]

Attacking, front foot football comes with risk. It's not a guarantee of success. Ange takes too many risks.

The only way to win the league now is with front foot football. City have set the bar so high now that 30 wins minimum is needed to challenge for the league. Settling for draws isn't really an option if you want to compete at the highest level. None of City, Liverpool, or Arsenal settle for draws.

 

[scaramanga]

No, I'm certainly not. I've felt it for a while, even before the defeats. We got a lot of good fortune in the first 10 games and I did say that here at the time. I'm okay with that, I've said from the start - 4th-8th is a good/decent job and especially if we play entertaining football.

I don't see Ange ever emulating what Poch did. Hopefully you're throwing this post in my face in a couple of years but I'm not convinced.

I think that outlook assumes that Ange doesn't learn/improve as we go.

This is his first real job, he's still got a lot to learn. He's starting from a decent base, let's see where that goes over the next few years.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The only way to win the league now is with front foot football. City have set the bar so high now that 30 wins minimum is needed to challenge for the league. Settling for draws isn't really an option if you want to compete at the highest level. None of City, Liverpool, or Arsenal settle for draws.

It’s how you have to play as you say

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No, I'm certainly not. I've felt it for a while, even before the defeats. We got a lot of good fortune in the first 10 games and I did say that here at the time. I'm okay with that, I've said from the start - 4th-8th is a good/decent job and especially if we play entertaining football.

I don't see Ange ever emulating what Poch did. Hopefully you're throwing this post imy face in a couple of years but I'm not convinced.

What fortune have we actually had?
The Var error vs pool
Anything else?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Sunday worries me because Saudi Sportswashing Machine play the same as West Ham now
We need to start with a striker who will occupy their centre backs but Ange will stick with Sonny

And the team chat actually keep the effort up for a whole game

 

[Raziel]

Honest question, when has this so-called gung ho style actually caused us problems? We’ve conceded a couple of goals from mistakes in playing the ball at the back, but I don’t think that’s the same thing. I don’t think we’ve been gung ho at all. I think it’s a high press, quick passing and lots of movement, but all in a very deliberate and organised manner. It’s not 5 strikers on the pitch at all times.

This is the point, people are being simplistic

Let's look at goals conceded
- Conceding goals from free kicks when you have no CB's (lack of height, instinct to cut it out), this isn't a system problem
- Goals change games, first goal for Wolves (absolute fluke of a hit) and West Ham (just a fudging fluke) took games we had under control and let opposition back in (we have to learn to deal with that change in opposition approach in game but that again isn't a system problem)
- The City game had goals that were specific to system, i.e. trying to play out of press and ignoring safe option, but that was against one of the best pressing sides in the world

What does the system give us
- We are a possession based side that wins back possession way faster than we ever have
- We create chances and we score

What are we not understanding?
- Udogie, Johnson, VDV, Sarr are all very young, young players make mistakes, have off days
- Romero, VDV, Bentancur, Maddison are critical players for us, people just saying we should deal with the injuries are being extremely unrealistic
- Not having a bench means we can't take advantage of the amount of possession and movement we have (tires opponent), to have fresh legs impact

I’m not sure they are temporary
Out football looks like we should smash teams
But in reality, even with a fully fit team we have down that once. Against a really naive team
Every time we have played a well organised side we have struggled to score
So for me, it’s not temporary
The football is amazing to watch
Hell I took a spam fan joke Alan night as I drove and he was a mate of a mate … he said it was the best footy he had seen… but we lost
We deserved to lose too because it’s not like the opposition keeper is having worldies
Our issue is we haven’t got enough goals in the team

I’ll add that I’m convinced he will fix it and we will fly. But the lack of goals for the football is a worry

Playing well means the likelihood of results aligning is certainly better than if you just play brick.

We score every game (28 in a row) and we tend to score first (so I'll challenge the statement a little). To contradict myself, even the best teams in the league are conceding ~1GA/per game, hence you probably need 2GF/per game to win.

The problem is we have one clinical finisher (Son), Gio & Maddison will/can be decent midfield contributors, but realistically we need one of the wingers to be a regular goal scorer (~15 vs. 6-8), Johnson/Deki/?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

This is the point, people are being simplistic

Let's look at goals conceded
- Conceding goals from free kicks when you have no CB's (lack of height, instinct to cut it out), this isn't a system problem
- Goals change games, first goal for Wolves (absolute fluke of a hit) and West Ham (just a fudging fluke) took games we had under control and let opposition back in (we have to learn to deal with that change in opposition approach in game but that again isn't a system problem)
- The City game had goals that were specific to system, i.e. trying to play out of press and ignoring safe option, but that was against one of the best pressing sides in the world

What does the system give us
- We are a possession based side that wins back possession way faster than we ever have
- We create chances and we score

What are we not understanding?
- Udogie, Johnson, VDV, Sarr are all very young, young players make mistakes, have off days
- Romero, VDV, Bentancur, Maddison are critical players for us, people just saying we should deal with the injuries are being extremely unrealistic
- Not having a bench means we can't take advantage of the amount of possession and movement we have (tires opponent), to have fresh legs impact



Playing well means the likelihood of results aligning is certainly better than if you just play brick.

We score every game (28 in a row) and we tend to score first (so I'll challenge the statement a little). To contradict myself, even the best teams in the league are conceding ~1GA/per game, hence you probably need 2GF/per game to win.

The problem is we have one clinical finisher (Son), Gio & Maddison will/can be decent midfield contributors, but realistically we need one of the wingers to be a regular goal scorer (~15 vs. 6-8), Johnson/Deki/?

Son is clinical but not a presence up top against any side that sits deep or is physical … hence why he looked great vs city and poor in the other defeats
We need a real centre forward to make this work as teams defend better on this league
Then add in the lack of finishing from others and it really hurts
We should be getting 2 plus a game… but we’re not against sides who defend
That says a lot about the way we play

 

[Raziel]

Son is clinical but not a presence up top against any side that sits deep or is physical … hence why he looked great vs city and poor in the other defeats
We need a real centre forward to make this work as teams defend better on this league
Then add in the lack of finishing from others and it really hurts
We should be getting 2 plus a game… but we’re not against sides who defend
That says a lot about the way we play

Where/how would you play the central striker? by moving Son back out wide?

I'd be concerned that would limit Son's output, I also think it's probably easier/cheaper to find a goalscoring winger than a top #9

 

[DeanoAustin]

The only way to win the league now is with front foot football. City have set the bar so high now that 30 wins minimum is needed to challenge for the league. Settling for draws isn't really an option if you want to compete at the highest level. None of City, Liverpool, or Arsenal settle for draws.

That's fair but a couple of points on this for me. We're playing front foot football on steroids and, for me, we're taking unnecessary risks. I don't fault Ange for it because we'd have lost anyway and it was fun but to illustrate the point, would any of those sides have gone as attacking as us against Chelsea down to 9 men? We know Liverpool sat in against us when they were down to 9.

The second point in my opinion is that we aren't going to seriously challenge those clubs for the league unless there is a change in our recruitment strategy.