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Victor Wanyama

Robspur12 said:
The key thing is that Wanyama is clearly rated by Poch. He bought him to Southampton, based on scouting reports that he fitted the system Poch wanted to play.
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True. However, there are still downsides to his move - loath as I am to agree with GB on any transfer-related phenomena, he's woeful at passing the ball more than 5 yards and he's pretty one-dimensional as far as players go - if you want a solid anchor man to sit back and break up play, he's your man. If you're looking for anything more, Wanyama isn't going to provide it, and by putting him on the field, you're basically ensuring that one less player is available for offensive duties than would otherwise be the case.

I think there's some truth to the notion that Poch might rate him more than most, but personally I think we need a more multifunctional midfield player who can cover both Dier and Dembele with a modicum of effortlessness. If Wanyama's a cheap pickup (as in, 10 million-ish), then we might be on to something, but if Soton ask for more from us and tout him around to literally anyone but us (as I suspect they will), then he becomes a riskier choice.

Both Wanyama and Xhaka (for the sake of comparison) have poor disciplinary records and are holding midfielders by trade, but one can do far more with the ball than the other can - the latter archetype of player is what we should be looking at, imo.

Although perhaps a midfield combo of Dier + Wanyama could be used in high intensity games as a sort of double-lock - say what you will, getting past that midfield is going to be a very hard thing to do, at least. :)
 
DubaiSpur said:
True. However, there are still downsides to his move - loath as I am to agree with GB on any transfer-related phenomena, he's woeful at passing the ball more than 5 yards and he's pretty one-dimensional as far as players go - if you want a solid anchor man to sit back and break up play, he's your man. If you're looking for anything more, Wanyama isn't going to provide it, and by putting him on the field, you're basically ensuring that one less player is available for offensive duties than would otherwise be the case.

I think there's some truth to the notion that Poch might rate him more than most, but personally I think we need a more multifunctional midfield player who can cover both Dier and Dembele with a modicum of effortlessness. If Wanyama's a cheap pickup (as in, 10 million-ish), then we might be on to something, but if Soton ask for more from us and tout him around to literally anyone but us (as I suspect they will), then he becomes a riskier choice.

Both Wanyama and Xhaka (for the sake of comparison) have poor disciplinary records and are holding midfielders by trade, but one can do far more with the ball than the other can - the latter archetype of player is what we should be looking at, imo.

Although perhaps a midfield combo of Dier + Wanyama could be used in high intensity games as a sort of double-lock - say what you will, getting past that midfield is going to be a very hard thing to do, at least. :)
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I don't think he is any worse than Dier in this respect and from what I saw in Southampton's game against us at WHL, Wanyama seemed to use the ball faster than Dier does. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Wanyama became first choice ahead of Dier if we were to bring him to the club. While Wanyama did indeed get sent off three times last season, I have no idea how Dier didn't get at least 2 reds (home v Arsenal where I have no idea how he failed to get a second yellow and away at Chelsea where having already been booked he should probably have received a straight red for his hack on Fabregas).
 
Finney Is Back said:
I don't think he is any worse than Dier in this respect and from what I saw in Southampton's game against us at WHL, Wanyama seemed to use the ball faster than Dier does. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Wanyama became first choice ahead of Dier if we were to bring him to the club. While Wanyama did indeed get sent off three times last season, I have no idea how Dier didn't get at least 2 reds (home v Arsenal where I have no idea how he failed to get a second yellow and away at Chelsea where having already been booked he should probably have received a straight red for his hack on Fabregas).
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Well, the allegation from Saints fans is that Wanyama never really tried this season, and only showed up in the big games against us, Arsenal and the like so he could put himself in the shop window. I'm not sure you should be taking his performance against us as an indicator of his regular level.

Also, there's no way Dier is worse at distributing the ball than he is - hell, back in March/April (before his form and confidence seemingly collapsed), he was spraying 40/50-yard passes around like Pirlo.
 
Vega said:
The Sun Football ‏@TheSunFootball 1h1 hour ago
EXCLUSIVE: Victor Wanyama to force Tottenham move after rejecting new Southampton deal http://thesun.uk/6011BqXsT

Probably just The Sun rehashing the story from yesterday, how on earth they can claim its exclusive seems a bit of a stretch.
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Exclusive in their case usually means you won't find anywhere else because they just made it up.

I reckon they just put 'exclusive' on everything though to make it look more important.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Palacios only cost us £12m and he's basically the same player.
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They are absolutely nothing like each other.... Again, I wonder whether you actually watch football or form an opinion based upon other factors?

Palacios would charge round the pitch making tackles everywhere and then often pass it to the opposition. Wanyama is extremely positionally disciplined, in fact (like Dier) I see that as being his biggest attribute - and something that we require for our game plan to operate properly. He also then tends to find a team mate with a pass.
 
Robspur12 said:
The key thing is that Wanyama is clearly rated by Poch. He bought him to Southampton, based on scouting reports that he fitted the system Poch wanted to play.
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Assuming of course that the media transfer speculation is true and that Pochettino wants him again now.

He was signed at Southampton, sure. At a time when Southampton were quite desperate for players and for a team that probably expeted to be lower half and looking for stability. I don't think that automatically transfers to Pochettino rating Wanyama for us here and now in our situation.

We've been linked to a ton of Southampton players by the media since Pochettino joined us. The closest we've come to actually signing one was Alderweireld who was on loan there the season after Pochettino left.

I think strong conclusions about how Poch rates Wanyama are a bit premature.

Kandi1977 said:
That was 7 years ago. Try finding a deal that would cost the same now as 7 years ago.
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Of course, football inflation and all that. But limited defensive midfielders are not particularly expensive.

Finney Is Back said:
They are absolutely nothing like each other.... Again, I wonder whether you actually watch football or form an opinion based upon other factors?

Palacios would charge round the pitch making tackles everywhere and then often pass it to the opposition. Wanyama is extremely positionally disciplined, in fact (like Dier) I see that as being his biggest attribute - and something that we require for our game plan to operate properly. He also then tends to find a team mate with a pass.
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You don't think some of those differences has to do with the roles they've been asked to play in the team rather than differences between the players?

As for the passing. Palacios pre-personal crisis was better on the ball than Wanyama from what I've seen.
 
braineclipse said:
We've been linked to a ton of Southampton players by the media since Pochettino joined us. The closest we've come to actually signing one was Alderweireld who was on loan there the season after Pochettino left.
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Well, yeah, Alderweireld is the one we actually signed, and he's the one Poch had little to do with. However, we were trying (extremely) lackadaisically for Schneiderlin and Rodriguez in the window Poch joined, don't forget - the same window that saw Schneiderlin throw his toys out the pram and tweet about all his years at the club being 'ruined' by their apparent refusal to let him move to us. I don't think the media's speculation about Poch being interested in his former players at Soton is without merit - there is substance there, as we've seen.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Well, yeah, Alderweireld is the one we actually signed, and he's the one Poch had little to do with. However, we were trying (extremely) lackadaisically for Schneiderlin and Rodriguez in the window Poch joined, don't forget - the same window that saw Schneiderlin throw his toys out the pram and tweet about all his years at the club being 'ruined' by their apparent refusal to let him move to us. I don't think the media's speculation about Poch being interested in his former players at Soton is without merit - there is substance there, as we've seen.
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So we were in your opinion trying extremely lackadaisically for two players. From that how much interest do you assume that Pochettino had in those players?

I remember reading a lot of stuff about us missing out on Lovren, who Pochettino apparently rated oh so highly and how Levy was undermining another manager and if only we did like Liverpool who signed Joe Allen for £15m for Rogers and on and on and on. Of course all of that was based on the speculation that Pochettino rated Lovren very highly, which was of course based on nothing other than an interpretation of media reports.

Sure Pochettino has rated some of the players we've been linked with from Southampton. But how highly has he rate them? What would Pochettino think was the top dollar we should pay for these various players? That's very much up in the air. How highly does Pochettino rate Wanyama for us now? What does Pochettino think is a reasonable fee for him?
 
braineclipse said:
So we were in your opinion trying extremely lackadaisically for two players. From that how much interest do you assume that Pochettino had in those players?

I remember reading a lot of stuff about us missing out on Lovren, who Pochettino apparently rated oh so highly and how Levy was undermining another manager and if only we did like Liverpool who signed Joe Allen for £15m for Rogers and on and on and on. Of course all of that was based on the speculation that Pochettino rated Lovren very highly, which was of course based on nothing other than an interpretation of media reports.

Sure Pochettino has rated some of the players we've been linked with from Southampton. But how highly has he rate them? What would Pochettino think was the top dollar we should pay for these various players? That's very much up in the air. How highly does Pochettino rate Wanyama for us now? What does Pochettino think is a reasonable fee for him?
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Yes, we were in my opinion trying extremely lackadaisically for two players. In itself, the fact that we tried to get Schneiderlin, Rodriguez, Musacchio et al that summer seems to me to put paid to your earlier assertions (I think it was in the Fazio thread, although I may well be wrong) that Stambouli and Fazio were well-planned 'plugs' that enabled Poch to sort the squad out and filled in where necessary, as opposed to being dirt-cheap bargain bins that we only desperately rushed to get when all other options failed to materialise for various reasons (from injuries hitting Musacchio and Moreno, two of our more prominently mentioned targets, to needlessly dropping the ball on Schneiderlin and Rodriguez).

However, the fact that we made a lackadaisical attempt to get those players does not by itself indicate that Poch had a lackadaisical interest in bringing them to Spurs - it could well indicate that Levy just felt unwilling to back Poch with who he wanted that summer, a trend that went from about January 2011 until last about June 2015, when (imo) he finally made a very welcome change and happily got around to backing the man in charge with what he wanted, or at least trying damn hard to do so. However, that is beside the point either way. My essential assertion was that Poch tried to get players from Southampton while he was in charge here previously - it was in evidence with Schneiderlin and Rodriguez, and it isn't fair to say that the media baselessly assert that Poch is interested in certain Soton players (Wanyama being one of them) when, as we've seen, he has tried to sign his former players in the past - hell, he even went to the extent of taking Osvaldo to St.Mary's in 2013 after managing him at Espanyol a couple of seasons earlier.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Yes, we were in my opinion trying extremely lackadaisically for two players. In itself, the fact that we tried to get Schneiderlin, Rodriguez, Musacchio et al that summer seems to me to put paid to your earlier assertions (I think it was in the Fazio thread, although I may well be wrong) that Stambouli and Fazio were well-planned 'plugs' that enabled Poch to sort the squad out and filled in where necessary, as opposed to being dirt-cheap bargain bins that we only desperately rushed to get when all other options failed to materialise for various reasons (from injuries hitting Musacchio and Moreno, two of our more prominently mentioned targets, to needlessly dropping the ball on Schneiderlin and Rodriguez).

However, the fact that we made a lackadaisical attempt to get those players does not by itself indicate that Poch had a lackadaisical interest in bringing them to Spurs - it could well indicate that Levy just felt unwilling to back Poch with who he wanted that summer, a trend that went from about January 2011 until last about June 2015, when (imo) he finally made a very welcome change and happily got around to backing the man in charge with what he wanted, or at least trying damn hard to do so. However, that is beside the point either way. My essential assertion was that Poch tried to get players from Southampton while he was in charge here previously - it was in evidence with Schneiderlin and Rodriguez, and it isn't fair to say that the media baselessly assert that Poch is interested in certain Soton players (Wanyama being one of them) when, as we've seen, he has tried to sign his former players in the past - hell, he even went to the extent of taking Osvaldo to St.Mary's in 2013 after managing him at Espanyol a couple of seasons earlier.
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You're right. I can't know for sure how badly Pochettino wanted those players and how much he thought we should pay for them. Thing is, I'm not claiming to know that. The people claiming to know that are those who accused Levy of not baking Pochettino by spending big on those players.

It is fair to say that a lot of what the media puts out there is baseless. The "manager linked to a previous player" is a cheap and easy story to put out there. I can't know from the outside which stories are baseless and which stories reflect true interest from a manager/head coach. Point is that those stories being there isn't a strong indicator of actual interest from the manager. But people repeatedly argue as if it is.
 
braineclipse said:
You're right. I can't know for sure how badly Pochettino wanted those players and how much he thought we should pay for them. Thing is, I'm not claiming to know that. The people claiming to know that are those who accused Levy of not baking Pochettino by spending big on those players.

It is fair to say that a lot of what the media puts out there is baseless. The "manager linked to a previous player" is a cheap and easy story to put out there. I can't know from the outside which stories are baseless and which stories reflect true interest from a manager/head coach. Point is that those stories being there isn't a strong indicator of actual interest from the manager. But people repeatedly argue as if it is.
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No, you are definitely not claiming to know that Poch wanted or did not want a particular player, and I freely admit that. However, you maintained that Stambouli and Fazio were effective, planned 'plug' signings, and it's very difficult to prove that assertion as well given the nature of their last-minute acquisition, general bargain-bin nature, sub-par performances and departures after just one season; so you're still speculating to a great extent.

Anyway, that isn't, as I said, the point. Your essential argument seems to be that the media baselessly links Poch to his former players as frequently as they do with random johnnies like Zlatan and Karol Linetty (to pick two examples). My argument is that this is not as baseless as you're making it out to be, because there has been concrete, verifiable proof of Poch moving for his former players, both in the recent past (as Schneiderlin and Rodriguez show) and further back (i.e, Osvaldo).

At the very least, they're speculating on a firmer footing than if they linked Poch with any random johnny. Quite possibly, they're also much closer to the truth. Dismissing such reports as baseless despite that is just ignoring the evidence based on which they're issuing them, imo. Are they all true? Definitely not. Are they more true than a report linking us to Jackson Martinez at Guangzhou Evergrande? Very possibly.
 
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