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**** Tottenham Hotspur FC vs Fulham FC ****

Bedfordspurs said:
It can work against us but we can play out of it or the fullback come central
neither did that much at all today
one positive is that Ange can see how Robinson plays for them and him or Doughty would imo be brilliant signings to alternate with Destiny (possibly At Noury at wolves too but I’m not sure about his defending, Robinson’s is top drawer and he is HG)
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If Luton go down we should be all over Doughty, alos even if they dont
 
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harr1984 said:
No one is panicking, no one is going in on Ange or anything - it's just another reality check, we are a long way off where we want to be and not as good as some on here like to think we are. People constantly reference the start of the season as the barometer, and now we have all our players back apparently we were going to be great again.

I said at the time that's not how football works, and that our great start was down to having a new manager in a new league and the element of surprise in how we setup. Now, second half of the season where everyone has played us they are better prepared and you can see this with how even very average teams give us problems. See De Zebri, his attacking football was a thing to behold a year ago - now everyone knows about him, along with European football he has found it more difficult.

Ange is going to have to adapt his style to a little extent at least longer term, because we aren't Emirates Marketing Project and have the best players in every position so we can dominate and do as we please. He will figure it out I'm sure, but we have a way to go before challenging for the league which was being mentioned on here not that long ago....
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Good post and interesting point about De Zerbi. I only thought we had a shot at challenging because we had momentum and no European football. Wouldn’t have had us challenging for top 4 before the season started let alone the title.
 
harr1984 said:
No one is panicking, no one is going in on Ange or anything - it's just another reality check, we are a long way off where we want to be and not as good as some on here like to think we are. People constantly reference the start of the season as the barometer, and now we have all our players back apparently we were going to be great again.

I said at the time that's not how football works, and that our great start was down to having a new manager in a new league and the element of surprise in how we setup. Now, second half of the season where everyone has played us they are better prepared and you can see this with how even very average teams give us problems. See De Zebri, his attacking football was a thing to behold a year ago - now everyone knows about him, along with European football he has found it more difficult.

Ange is going to have to adapt his style to a little extent at least longer term, because we aren't Emirates Marketing Project and have the best players in every position so we can dominate and do as we please. He will figure it out I'm sure, but we have a way to go before challenging for the league which was being mentioned on here not that long ago....
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No he doesn’t
He just needs more time and better players
The system works
The players need to execute it
Yesterday the players were so bad at all the basics. That’s not the system.
The inability to pass 5 yards
Letting your man run off you unchallenged
Missing open goals
That’s not system problems
I do agree with @Finney Is Back around teams giving the CBS more time. That’s something to adapt too within the system
Ange learned plenty which is really what this season is about
And getting back into the highest level conception now is the bonus
 
Baleforce said:
I agree with the wider point.

But we are not doing anything until we are back in the CL, that’s top of the to do list, that’s where the money is, and where the best players want to be.
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We will make it, I just agree with him that the rhetoric around Spurs can't be constantly linked to the CL. Yes we need to be in it, but it can't be the Everest moment that the News and fans make it to be.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Good post and interesting point about De Zerbi. I only thought we had a shot at challenging because we had momentum and no European football. Wouldn’t have had us challenging for top 4 before the season started let alone the title.
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I was keen on Ange and said before season started I thought we could challenge for top 4, like you say with no European football and I didn't see many teams that were better than us on paper as outside top 3 I didn't/dont see any teams obviously superior.

I have no expectations even now but we are in and around where I thought we would be, I'm comfortable with a Europa League spot and anything better would be a bonus. I don't see us finishing outside the top 6, if we did that is the only scenario where I would feel a little disappointed although still very much behind Ange long term regardless....
 
Jurgen the German said:
Yep. We’re not as good as the top 3, but I look at Villa and United’s squads and I honestly wouldn’t swap either for ours.
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I wouldn't swap squads but I would swap specific players from both and that's rub of things when you're a 4th-6th performing team. Your squad and even probably first 11 won't be perfect and can be improved upon even with players from the teams directly around you.

In terms of the project for me we are ahead of where we would have reasonably expected to be at this stage. We had a great start to the season but the mistake would be expecting that level of performance and results to sustain all the way through. It hasn't of course and for me that doesn't mean we e bottled things or similar, it's just the results have returned back to the mean.

Before the season started my aim and expectation was a top 6 finish, doing very well initially hasn't changed that because I still had all my reservations about the overall quality of the squad. The additions alone were never going to be enough to totally change the entire trajectory. This is season one of the project not getting top 4 no matter how the season has laid itself out will not be a failure.
 
Bishop said:
I wouldn't swap squads but I would swap specific players from both and that's rub of things when you're a 4th-6th performing team. Your squad and even probably first 11 won't be perfect and can be improved upon even with players from the teams directly around you.

In terms of the project for me we are ahead of where we would have reasonably expected to be at this stage. We had a great start to the season but the mistake would be expecting that level of performance and results to sustain all the way through. It hasn't of course and for me that doesn't mean we e bottled things or similar, it's just the results have returned back to the mean.

Before the season started my aim and expectation was a top 6 finish, doing very well initially hasn't changed that because I still had all my reservations about the overall quality of the squad. The additions alone were never going to be enough to totally change the entire trajectory. This is season one of the project not getting top 4 no matter how the season has laid itself out will not be a failure.
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All absolutely spot on
 
Bedfordspurs said:
No he doesn’t
He just needs more time and better players
The system works
The players need to execute it
Yesterday the players were so bad at all the basics. That’s not the system.
The inability to pass 5 yards
Letting your man run off you unchallenged
Missing open goals
That’s not system problems
I do agree with @Finney Is Back around teams giving the CBS more time. That’s something to adapt too within the system
Ange learned plenty which is really what this season is about
And getting back into the highest level conception now is the bonus
Click to expand...
I do have concerns about the system but I find it hard to go too hard on the system yesterday because not one of our starting eleven put in a performance. For whatever reason, they were all miles off it. When trying to pick a MOTM for us, I was stuck between Vicario and Bentancur. Not that either were particularly good, they just didn’t fudge up. One of those is our keeper and one was a sub.

When your entire team is off it, by a distance, no tactics or game plan will win you the game.
 
harr1984 said:
No one is panicking, no one is going in on Ange or anything - it's just another reality check, we are a long way off where we want to be and not as good as some on here like to think we are. People constantly reference the start of the season as the barometer, and now we have all our players back apparently we were going to be great again.

I said at the time that's not how football works, and that our great start was down to having a new manager in a new league and the element of surprise in how we setup. Now, second half of the season where everyone has played us they are better prepared and you can see this with how even very average teams give us problems. See De Zebri, his attacking football was a thing to behold a year ago - now everyone knows about him, along with European football he has found it more difficult.

Ange is going to have to adapt his style to a little extent at least longer term, because we aren't Emirates Marketing Project and have the best players in every position so we can dominate and do as we please. He will figure it out I'm sure, but we have a way to go before challenging for the league which was being mentioned on here not that long ago....
Click to expand...

There are lots of people panicking, not just on here but on social media (yeah ignore etc etc the noise has an impact.)

Last week we took apart our nearest challenger, this week Ange has once again been found out? Come on, Brighton were over the moon to finish 6th. Their relative struggles this season have little to do with De Zerbi being found out, and (as you kind of allude to) more to do with a squad not built to handle European football and challenge for the top spots in the Premier League. It's a lazy comparison based on nothing other than managers doing well at the start of their reign.

Our problem isn't our tactics, it's the players aren't where we need them to be to make those tactics works. Most people would use that as the reason to abandon those tactics, but thank fudge we have a manager with a backbone who is setting out his stall and will live or die by it.
 
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tommysvr said:
There are lots of people panicking, not just on here but on social media (yeah ignore etc etc the noise has an impact.)

Last week we took apart our nearest challenger, this week Ange has once again been found out? Come on, Brighton were over the moon to finish 6th. Their relative struggles this season have little to do with De Zerbi being found out, and more to do with a squad not built to handle European football and challenge for the top spots in the Premier League. It's a terrible comparison based on nothing other than managers doing well at the start of their reign.

Our problem isn't our tactics, it's the players aren't where we need them to be to make those tactics works. Most people would use that as the reason to abandon those tactics, but thank fudge we have a manager with a backbone who is setting out his stall and will live or die by it.
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We 'took apart' a team whose manager massively fudged up by changing tactics for us, had a European game 3 days before and played over half hour with 10 men. Doesnt mean we don't deserve credit for our performance, but even if you want to argue that was some brilliant performance from us - how many of those vs how many poor ones over the last few months? Teams have overall setup much better against us in second half of the season, as would be expected.

Yes De Zebri is a terrible comparison, new manager from a different league never managing in the PL before, attacking football, team having no European football flying high Etc I can't find any parallels at all.

No one (on here at least) has said Ange should abandon his tactics, but will have to tweak his tactics a little over time like all managers even the very best have had to because of the challenges the PL offers if he wants to really dine at the top table....
 
harr1984 said:
We 'took apart' a team whose manager massively fudged up by changing tactics for us, had a European game 3 days before and played over half hour with 10 men. Doesnt mean we don't deserve credit for our performance, but even if you want to argue that was some brilliant performance from us - how many of those vs how many poor ones over the last few months? Teams have overall setup much better against us in second half of the season, as would be expected.

Yes De Zebri is a terrible comparison, new manager from a different league never managing in the PL before, attacking football, team having no European football flying high Etc I can't find any parallels at all.

No one (on here at least) has said Ange should abandon his tactics, but will have to tweak his tactics a little over time like all managers even the very best have had to because of the challenges the PL offers if he wants to really dine at the top table....
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1. Villa was back to what we know we can be; we've had months of interruptions with injuries, international tournaments etc. It's had a pretty obvious impact on the team

2. Yes, I thought last week was brilliant for the most part; not perfect, but still as close to brilliant as we've had. Villa were awful too.

3. Brighton will be lucky to ever finish above Spurs again. The clubs are completely different. Yes, it is a lazy (edited before you replied, terrible was too strong sorry) comparison because neither have 'struggled' for the same reasons. De Zerbi went in on the back of Graham Potter and improved them. Ange came in on the back of the single most shambolic season we've seen in modern history and is still sorting out that mess. That he's got us to the point where 6th would be disappointing in less than 10 months is incredible

4. If you think Ange hasn't tweaked his tactics then I'm deadset not here. He will continue to do that, the team will continue to get better at applying his tactics and that will be hastened by the right signings. But poor performances and aberrations like Fulham, Wolves, Brighton (A) etc will still happen.
 
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DeanoAustin said:
I do have concerns about the system but I find it hard to go too hard on the system yesterday because not one of our starting eleven put in a performance. For whatever reason, they were all miles off it. When trying to pick a MOTM for us, I was stuck between Vicario and Bentancur. Not that either were particularly good, they just didn’t fudge up. One of those is our keeper and one was a sub.

When your entire team is off it, by a distance, no tactics or game plan will win you the game.
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No system allows for players being so far off it… quite scary
 
tommysvr said:
1. Villa was back to what we know we can be; we've had months of interruptions with injuries, international tournaments etc. It's had a pretty obvious impact on the team

2. Yes, I thought last week was brilliant for the most part; not perfect, but still as close to brilliant as we've had. Villa were awful too.

3. Brighton will be lucky to ever finish above Spurs again. The clubs are completely different. Yes, it is a lazy (edited before you replied, terrible was too strong sorry) comparison because neither have 'struggled' for the same reasons. De Zerbi went in on the back of Graham Potter and improved them. Ange came in on the back of the single most shambolic season we've seen in modern history and is still sorting out that mess. That he's got us to the point where 6th would be disappointing in less than 10 months is incredible

4. If you think Ange hasn't tweaked his tactics then I'm deadset not here. He will continue to do that, the team will continue to get better at applying his tactics and that will be hastened by the right signings. But poor performances and aberrations like Fulham, Wolves, Brighton (A) etc will still happen.
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You're talking as if there is some big negative against Ange when there isn't? Just highlighting challenges that he is going to have to go through.

Will just have to disagree slightly regarding Villa, first half wasn't anything special and they began to tire second half which is normal of a team who played away in Europe 3 days earlier and had ten men for over half hour. Doesnt mean it wasn't a good performance regardless but I wasn't THAT impressed and why I was still hesitant coming into this game, rather than believing we really had our mojo back.

As for De Zebri, there are clear parallels that I've mentioned and he played a very attacking brand of football that got Brighton 6th whereas we with far superior players are sitting 5th. That along with the fact that Ange and De Zebri were the two final managers on Brightons short list, it is a fair comparison. More so that isn't me saying Ange is going to struggle in season 2, it's just what is quite an obvious point that it is a lot easier coming in at the start when you and your team are unknown and is far harder to maintain that longer term - hence why new manager bounce is very much a thing. Again, not saying Ange or De Zebri for that matter won't - just something that has to be proved.

The swashbuckling football which was so easy to produce at the start of the season hasn't been there (except in small bursts) for a while now as teams have in general better setup against us. Doesn't mean Ange won't find the solutions or that longer term we won't find more start of season performances. Just a typical challenge a manager of a club looking to approach the upper echelons of the league is going to have to go through before reaching the summit...
 
harr1984 said:
You're talking as if there is some big negative against Ange when there isn't? Just highlighting challenges that he is going to have to go through.

Will just have to disagree slightly regarding Villa, first half wasn't anything special and they began to tire second half which is normal of a team who played away in Europe 3 days earlier and had ten men for over half hour. Doesnt mean it wasn't a good performance regardless but I wasn't THAT impressed and why I was still hesitant coming into this game, rather than believing we really had our mojo back.

As for De Zebri, there are clear parallels that I've mentioned and he played a very attacking brand of football that got Brighton 6th whereas we with far superior players are sitting 5th. That along with the fact that Ange and De Zebri were the two final managers on Brightons short list, it is a fair comparison. More so that isn't me saying Ange is going to struggle in season 2, it's just what is quite an obvious point that it is a lot easier coming in at the start when you and your team are unknown and is far harder to maintain that longer term - hence why new manager bounce is very much a thing. Again, not saying Ange or De Zebri for that matter won't - just something that has to be proved.

The swashbuckling football which was so easy to produce at the start of the season hasn't been there (except in small bursts) for a while now as teams have in general better setup against us. Doesn't mean Ange won't find the solutions or that longer term we won't find more start of season performances. Just a typical challenge a manager of a club looking to approach the upper echelons of the league is going to have to go through before reaching the summit...
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Re the Villa game, I made the point that we weren’t THAT much better in the first half and didn’t dominate but got short shrift for it. We dominated possession but didn’t actually create anything, Villa looked more threatening on the rare times they ventured forward but didn’t look particularly frightening either. 0-0 was very much a fair reflection but some people think just tiring a team and dominating possession means you’re battering the other team. Second half I thought we controlled, yes playing against 10 men helped massively but Villa still didn’t lay a glove on us.

It’s worth taking stock and not losing perspective. Arsenal took 4 years to seriously challenge under Arteta. Liverpool didn’t challenge for the title with Klopp until his 4th season. The nature of the style of football we play makes it very hard to predict and we could see more heavy wins followed by reality checks like we saw against Brighton and Fulham.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Re the Villa game, I made the point that we weren’t THAT much better in the first half and didn’t dominate but got short shrift for it. We dominated possession but didn’t actually create anything, Villa looked more threatening on the rare times they ventured forward but didn’t look particularly frightening either. 0-0 was very much a fair reflection but some people think just tiring a team and dominating possession means you’re battering the other team. Second half I thought we controlled, yes playing against 10 men helped massively but Villa still didn’t lay a glove on us.

It’s worth taking stock and not losing perspective. Arsenal took 4 years to seriously challenge under Arteta. Liverpool didn’t challenge for the title with Klopp until his 4th season. The nature of the style of football we play makes it very hard to predict and we could see more heavy wins followed by reality checks like we saw against Brighton and Fulham.
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We were dominating against villa form the off
What we didn’t do is pepper their goal with shots
That was because like many teams, they stuck many men behind the ball
(Something Fulham didn’t do)
Shooting isn’t dominance. Control the game and the tempo is
 
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Bedfordspurs said:
We were dominating against villa form the off
What we didn’t do is pepper their goal with shots
That was because like many teams, they stuck many men behind the ball
(Something Fulham didn’t do)
Shooting isn’t dominance. Control the game and the tempo is
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@Jurgen the German is never gonna understand that, proven in the Villa OMT.. I don't think he wants to understand
 
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